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Ancient Indigenous Tribe Narrates Identity Of All Tribes In The World Originated From Cibolan In Davao


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#18 JMJones0424

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 07:26 PM

Please note- never, did I ever, denigrate or otherwise ridicule the ancient myth. My complaint is solely against your evidence. If the picture of the continent is not meant to be part of your evidence, then I suppose I misunderstood your reason for posting it twice, and for twice posting a link to an article that makes the assertion: "The legendary continent was said to have finally sunk about 22,600 years ago." without even attempting to show supporting evidence.

Likewise, there is no reason to believe the veracity of Plato's, or anyone else's, account of a mythical "lost continent". Mankind simply has not been around long enough to witness the disappearance of a continent due to any geological movement that we have evidence of. If it is your premise that such a continent existed, you need to show evidence that such a thing took place. Relying on spoken or written tradition is not sufficient. While scientific explanations are not, and can likely never be entirely complete, it is a huge leap to go from "we don't have a full understanding of something" to claiming that something happened when all verifiable evidence outside the myth itself that makes the claim suggests otherwise.

Myths often contain kernels of truth, around which, over time, embellishment and inexact retelling eventually builds a much more far-reaching story. Without verifiable supporting evidence, it remains a myth.

You've made a lot of claims, several in your latest post alone. For the sake of accuracy, let's identify specific items that you think are supporting evidence for your claim. I've given specific items that refute your claims, and I'll add a few more as well. Perhaps this will help to focus your search for scientific evidence supporting your claims. EDIT: To be honest, I would far more enjoy a discussion of the Bagobo origin myth as it is, and what it means to those who tell it, without trying to stretch it into a poorly fitting scientific explanation. If you wish to further investigate the ways in which the story could accurately describe the natural world, then that is certainly your choice. If I can help, I will, but I am not an anthropologist nor a geneticist. I would only caution you against accepting unsupported claims you find online as fact without weighing their veracity.

1.) The research in my previous posts concerning genetic markers contradicts your premise that all humans can trace their lineage to the area of the Philippines.
2.) There is no geological evidence that a continent did or even could have disappeared within the history of mankind.
3.) The existence alone of the Easter Island faces or of the still disputed Yonaguni Monument does not lend support to your claims. You need to show evidence that actually links the Moai or any other proposed archaeological site to the Bagobo people or their descendants.
4.) What is your evidence that Cibola, as used in New Mexico, is not an A:shiwi word for buffalo?*which likely came from the Spanish word cibolo

I ask that you not refer to rational inquiry as close-mindedness. In fact, I am more than willing to be open-minded and accept evidence, if it exists, supporting your premise. You have, however, ignored all evidence against it. You ask that I not be bigoted, and I will certainly agree to do so, as long as you agree to not misrepresent another people's culture and history in support of your premise. Cibola exists, the indigenous people there exist. They too have origin myths. Rather than subverting their identity, please provide evidence to support your numerous claims. You have only provided speculation and easily refuted supposition as of yet.

Edited by JMJones0424, 16 January 2012 - 09:35 PM.

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#19 rocket art

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 09:47 PM

oh Mr. Jones I was not refferring it directly to you but rather it was triggered by some who seemed swift in concluding condescendingly when I had not even replied yet to the statements, and even made such a crass presumption as if this was just about money as if I do the same way as him/her.

However I tend to sense the sincerity of your post, and far from ignoring I do appreciate the links that you provided although I may expect you not to just agree anything that I would say for the moment. Actually my research was borne out from a seeming frustration because from my experience the mainstream educational system (with due respect to some local teachers, they could be among the most dedicated one encounters, I was referring to the system) in our country was just so inefficient in providing us with our people's pre-colonial history that prompted me to do my personal research for my quest for answers that was not provided to me. For years together with knowledge given to me including that of acquaintances I had met both locally and international, and thanks to this Information Age, patterns had began to manifest such that I may say my personal research had gone full circle on some aspects. My strategy was to research as many sources as possible such that I may have established a falsifiability of my views and check its veracity, and could sense inaccuracy from some sources despite the avant garde revelations and found symmetry with that of mainstream knowledge such that some could hold answers and clues to long unanswered mysteries that even mainstream Science had been found wanting in explaining. Actually, I would say that I'm more into the realm of Art, being a visual artist and creative writer as among my humble gifts, and it is an innate capacity for me to keenly observe patterns around me. I have also been a Physics enthusiast upon my desire to seek answers to my personal queries, sometimes metaphysical in experience, and have so admired it for it had provided a language that sometimes only Physics can speak in this secular world :thumbs_up

Thanks for your pointers, be assured that in I will spend due time with them, and will do encourage you and other forumers here to scrutinize, with consideration to mutual respect, and being the proponent of this theory, I will do whenever I can to share my views and defend my position to further refine and/or weed out the dross, as Science does and with its merits, sometimes yet limited it may be.


for the moment I will try to reply to the 4 points you had mentioned.


1.) The research in my previous posts concerning genetic markers contradicts your premise that all humans can trace their lineage to the area of the Philippines.


For the moment I would start at domestic level, there were two contesting mainstream theories as to the origin of Filipinos, the "Out of Taiwan Theory" and "Out of Sundaland Theory." My personal research may have actually strengthened the "Out of Sundaland Theory" and had even provided the specific details of its origin based on the ancient knowledge of one of our Indigenous People's here, the Bagobo Peoples whose culture had survived for millennia despite the onslaught of colonialism in our country.

2.) There is no geological evidence that a continent did or even could have disappeared within the history of mankind.


for the moment I have found plausible explanation with the Subduction phenomenon, and clues to the answer the mysterious sunken city of Yonaguni Japan intriguingly linked with the headrest costume often identified with Native Americans. Pls. do not conclude that the map of MU as a huge single landmass I posted is already my official stand as it was only meant for illustration purposes to start with. Other ancient sources actually mentioned of 7 subcontinents/kingdoms that go with it. I believe there will be more, such as great upheavals, geological manifestations, that may provide further clues as we go along.

3

.) The existence alone of the Easter Island faces or of the still disputed Yonaguni Monument does not lend support to your claims. You need to show evidence that actually links the Moai or any other proposed archaeological site to the Bagobo people or their descendants.


Hopefully there will be more to be found. On local level I'd like to inform our country's tallest peak, Mt. Apo from where in its foothills the place Cibolan (Sibulan) the Bagobo's had lived for eras, had its share of eruptions in the past that may have virtually wiped out traces of ancient archeological basis. There may even be evidences that in particular the area of Mt. Apo may used to be a small island until the series of subduction and upheavals had caused it to expand in its present geographical chharacteristic. In fact the area may had been abandoned for millennia and some of our ancestors had returned back to its shores later about 5th century AD.

4.) What is your evidence that Cibola, as used in New Mexico, is not an A:shiwi word for buffalo?*which likely came from the Spanish word cibolo


I believe Cibola's ageless legend had its referrence to gold, as to the 7 cities of Gold. recalling back the root word of Cibola was said to come from the Dravidian language, civ-pola, meaning "golden city," which was said to be another name for the legendary MU. It may interest you (exasperatingly it was not even mentioned from our mainstream colonial-based history lessons :hammer2: :ohdear:), that one of the pre-colonial name of our archipelago islands that made it famous in the ancient world and prior to being called "Philippines," was "Isle of Gold."

#20 rocket art

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:24 PM

by the way, you inquired as to the version of the origin mythology of the Bagobo People's. I would like to share this link:

http://maharlikan.bl...othills-of.html

#21 rocket art

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:11 PM

Interesting!

Im not sure how far the progress of the work of resurrecting the original language has gone, but results have been claimed... so if a language analysis is done, perhaps this "Cibola Hypothesis" will be strenghtened.


by the way, thanks for the enthusiasm, hopefully it would continue and provide glimpses of light to questions we have been waiting for :thumbs_up:

#22 belovelife

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:26 AM

interesting, with the lack of water weight on the tectonic plate, the area could be raised by another margin also, i watched some videos on this, amazing, i want to knoiw more

#23 belovelife

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:33 AM

in the original series of photos on this thread there is a picture of a humanoid figure, where is that in relation to the city?

#24 rocket art

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:37 AM

in the original series of photos on this thread there is a picture of a humanoid figure, where is that in relation to the city?


ain't it amazing the sculpted humanoid figure wearing a headrest similar to what Native American chieftains wear, was discovered in an ancient submerged city underneath the waters of Yonaguni, Japan

#25 belovelife

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:52 AM

wow

#26 belovelife

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 02:09 AM

ok, taking into account potential incfreased weight of water on the tectonic plates, the dispersion of air and its qualities would be different than today ( at current elevation above sea level) , while the artic and antartica would be lower, i wonder how this pusing of the planets poles has actually shapedf the movement of the tectonic plates, considering the amount of ice ages, this would definatley direct the flow of land masses across the globe

#27 rocket art

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:20 AM

1.) The research in my previous posts concerning genetic markers contradicts your premise that all humans can trace their lineage to the area of the Philippines.


by the way, let me reiterate that what is mentioned is that "All Tribes," and not necessarily "All humans," originated their "Identity" from Cibolan.

Perhaps this could be referred to an awakening of Humanity that had evolved into a "Tribe" Consciousness





ok, taking into account potential incfreased weight of water on the tectonic plates, the dispersion of air and its qualities would be different than today ( at current elevation above sea level) , while the artic and antartica would be lower, i wonder how this pusing of the planets poles has actually shapedf the movement of the tectonic plates, considering the amount of ice ages, this would definatley direct the flow of land masses across the globe


It may interest you that some thousands of feet above sea level along the areas surrounding Mt. Apo, the presence of limestones may be noticed, and even from personal experience we witnessed a certain area thousands of feet near its foothills what seemed to be white sands similar to those found in beaches.

#28 JMJones0424

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 11:09 AM

1.) Genetic evidence Since you have clarified your meaning of "all tribes in the world" to mean "all descending tribes of the Bagobo people", my genetic complaint is no longer relevant. I would caution against future statements that may cloud the issue, as it was not apparent to me what you were claiming.

2.) Geological evidence You still have not shown any geological process that could have done away with a continent in the time that humans have existed as a species. It would be silly of me to argue that limestone formations above ground did not originate from the sea floor. It would be silly of me to argue that the occasional city or two could not have been engulfed by rising ocean levels. I have not argued either of those points. My complaint is specific. There is no evidence, and in fact there is no known geological process that can remove a continent from the face of the Earth in 200,000 years. However, neither have you shown that this is even a part of the origin myth you are seeking to explain. This entire line of investigation seems to me to taint your presentation with the same stain of wishful thinking and mysticism contrary to evidence that exists with all claims of a lost continent, Atlantis, Mu, or otherwise.

3.) Archaeological evidence I have previously stated existence alone of other archaeological sites without evidence associating them with the Bagobo people is not support for your claims. Your reply was nothing but more suppositions.

4.) Linguistic evidence So far, the only evidence you have provided is that Cibola sounds similar to Cibolan and the Dravidian word civ-pola. This is superficial. In order to be more than just purely circumstancial, you would need to show some etymological tie from Dravidian to the Zuni language. If there were a link, one would expect to find more similar vocabulary and grammar. Cibolo/cibola is an old Spanish word for buffalo. The evidence is overwhelming that the A:shawi in the area had contact with the Spanish, that the Spanish named their area Cibola, and that they did so because the buffalo was an integral part of their life. I have done some digging around about the origin of the "seven cities of Cibola" story, and have found numerous references but no proof from a solid source that the myth, and therefore the name, originates from Spain itself, not from India.

The myth as told by the Spanish that named the area has its beginning in the Muslim invasion of the city of Marida, Spain, in 1150. Seven bishops fled the city with the church's riches and sailed west to escape the Moors. Each bishop was said to have founded a city which grew in wealth, however, as myths often do, there was never any attempt to give the location of these seven cities.

Fast forward now to the Spanish conquest of the New World. Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca, one of only 4 surviving members of the Narváez expedition to colonize Florida, recounts tails of riches and claims to have found evidence of the lost seven cities. His tale is truly amazing, but only important to this story in that he helped fuel the rumors of further riches in the American southwest.

Flush from looting the Aztecs, and in search of more gold, the viceroy sent Fra Marcos de Niza to find the lost cities. He took with him Estevanico, a slave and another survivor of the Narváez expedition, and two others. They turned back after illness struck the group, but in the distance, they had spotted a vast pueblo settlement and when they returned to Mexico City, they claimed to have found the first of the lost cities in the district the Spanish had named Cibola. The next year, Coronado set out on his famous mission to find the seven cities, and Marcos de Niza was disgraced when all they found were two pueblo cities.


Thank you for providing an account of the Bagobo origin myth. In case you don't have it already, here's an online copy of the entire book that contains that passage. Philippine Folk Tales by Mabel Cook Cole. As noted in your source and in the footnotes of the book by Cole

This is a good example of the way in which people at a certain stage try to account for their surroundings. Nearly all consider themselves the original people. We find the Bagobo no exception to this. In this tale, which is evidently very old, they account for themselves and their neighbors, and then, to meet present needs, they adapt the story to include the white people whom they have known for not more than two hundred years.


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#29 sigurdV

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 03:19 PM

I cant help wonder where Dravidian is located in the tree of languages?

#30 JMJones0424

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 06:29 PM

I suppose I should have linked to the entry for Dravidian languages rather than Dravidian people above. I wanted to stress the movement of the people who shared the linguistic family rather than the tongue itself. Regardless, one click from one article leads to the other.

Relationship of Dravidian to other language families

The Dravidian languages have not been shown to be related to any other language family. Comparisons have been made not just with the other language families of the Indian Subcontinent (Indo-European, Austro-Asiatic, Tibeto-Burman, and Nihali), but with all typologically similar language families of the Old World. Dravidian is one of the primary linguistic groups in the proposed Nostratic proposal, which would link most languages in North Africa, Europe and Western Asia into a family with its origins in the Fertile Crescent sometime between the last Ice Age and the emergence of proto-Indo-European 4–6 thousand years BCE. However, the general consensus is that such deep connections are not, or not yet, demonstrable.
On a less ambitious scale, McAlpin (1975) proposed linking Dravidian languages with the ancient Elamite language of what is now southwestern Iran. However, despite decades of research, this Elamo-Dravidian language family has not been demonstrated to the satisfaction of other historical linguists.
Nonetheless, while there are no readily detectable genealogical connections, there are strong areal features Dravidian shares with the Indo-Aryan languages. Dravidian languages show extensive lexical (vocabulary) borrowing, but only a few traits of structural (either phonological or grammatical) borrowing, from Indo-Aryan, whereas Indo-Aryan shows more structural features than lexical borrowings from the Dravidian languages. The Dravidian impact on the syntax of Indo-Aryan languages is considered far greater than the Indo-Aryan impact on Dravidian grammar. Some linguists explain this asymmetry by arguing that Middle Indo-Aryan languages were built on a Dravidian substratum.



#31 sigurdV

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 06:53 PM

:bounce: As I suspected...not among nostratic and the others just above the root!

The majority is always too slow in appriciating the truth... remember Wegener :yes:

Or Darwin and the age of Earth :hammer:

How can an innovator Not! start in the minority?

#32 JMJones0424

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 07:06 PM

The first step in the process of getting the majority to recognize truth would be to show the truth of one's truth that one's truth is not false, would it not?

*I like that wording better. As always, the null hypothesis is assumed and it should be the goal of the promoter of non-standard explanations to gather evidence that causes one to reject the null hypothesis. Proving truths is for the omniscient.

Edited by JMJones0424, 17 January 2012 - 07:49 PM.

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#33 sigurdV

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 09:04 PM

The first step in the process of getting the majority to recognize truth would be to show the truth of one's truth that one's truth is not false, would it not?

*I like that wording better. As always, the null hypothesis is assumed and it should be the goal of the promoter of non-standard explanations to gather evidence that causes one to reject the null hypothesis. Proving truths is for the omniscient.


Hey! We are going to clash!

Prove that "Proving truths is for the omniscient"... which would prove YOU omniscient!

Its ok if you only s h o w the truth of your last statement, which by the way is the only thing in your entry i cant accept (Bribed a little, since no truth can be false according to classic logic, but i think you really meant statement.) :)

PS Where did you pick up the term "null hypothesis"? Isnt "dull hypothesis" more apt? :lol:

#34 JMJones0424

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:01 PM

Prove that "Proving truths is for the omniscient"... which would prove YOU omniscient!


Logic is your domain, not mine. There are logical proofs. This is science. Because it is not possible for a person with limited amount of information to know everything about a subject, it is not possible to "prove" in science. Instead, one devises falsifiable hypothesis and attempts to disprove them by searching for data that contradicts the hypotheses.

Say I've got an idea. The Zuni language is associated with the Dravidian family of languages. The null hypothesis is that the Zuni language is not associated. My job is to gather evidence which leads me to reject the null hypothesis. It is not possible to prove that my idea is correct, because even if I have access to all information that exists now, I do not have access to any information that may be discovered in the future. Instead, it is my task to disprove the negation of the idea, leaving the idea as the most likely explanation.

This is a philosophy of science question, and there are likely many threads on the subject written by people more competent than I in that forum. I think Karl Popper's ideas on the problem of induction is central to this.
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