Supervolcanos And Geothermal Energy

[belovelife]

around 6 years ago, i suggested tapping into the caldera to get a core sample of the earth, by making 2 tunnels, one for pressure release one for access

 

while saving potentially millions of lives, we would also get a core the we could investigate scientifically

 

this evolved into setting up geo thermal lines in the chamber that the magma would go into, to produce geo thermal energy

believing this is possible (and probly getting many different types of crystals from this), why not do this to all volcanos, the theory is sound

 

geo thermal energy while preventing devistating natural disaters

B)

[Eclogite]

around 6 years ago, i suggested tapping into the caldera to get a core sample of the earth, by making 2 tunnels, one for pressure release one for access

 

while saving potentially millions of lives, we would also get a core the we could investigate scientifically

 

this evolved into setting up geo thermal lines in the chamber that the magma would go into, to produce geo thermal energy

believing this is possible (and probly getting many different types of crystals from this), why not do this to all volcanos, the theory is sound

 

geo thermal energy while preventing devistating natural disaters

B)

Your intentiosn are to be applauded. Let me ask you some specific questions.

 

What 'earth' specifically do you plan to sample? If you are tunneling, in what sense are you acquiring a core sample? what test would you intend to carry out on the sample(s)?

 

When exposing the magma chamber how would you prevent an uncontrolled eruption from occuring? conversely, how would you prevent solidification of the magma within the tunnel?

 

What chamber is the magma going into? How would you construct this chamber? What is a geothermal line? Or, in other words, how do you plan to convert the enrgy from molten magma into usable energy? What crystals do you think you might acquire from this process, what do you think would be valuable about them and why do you think this would be a more efficient means of obtaining them than currently available sources?

 

Have you done a risk assessment on this proposal? Have you done a costing exercise on this proposal?

[belovelife]

as far as a core sample, mabe that is not the best way to say it

 

more like a sample of the mantle

 

this is how i envision it

2 tunnels

 

far enough apart so when the magma chamber is vented it does not blow a hole to the other tunnel

 

both deep enough to prevent further eruption, (1 1/2 times the distance to the magma chamber from the surface should work)

 

now the tunnel should be built lined with a heat conductor in the concrete

 

since the magma may melt the concrete on the bottom of the chamber, mabe a bit more in the top of the chamber and the sides (assuming a cylindrical chamber)

 

so as the chamber is heated from the magma, the heat only escapes throught the heat conducting layers of concrets in the tunnel

 

considering the incredible temperatures involved in this, i would not think that the magma would cool fast enough to clogg the chamber until it gets really far from the magma chamber

 

now the pressure of the gasses in the chamber getting instantly hot and expanding could be an issue

 

since it would be a sealed chamber until the final robotic tunneling tap the magma chamber, mabe its possible to create as much of a vacume as possible

 

for 2 reasons

 

the expantion of the gasses as they heat up, and the miniscule amount that the gasses will cool the magma down

 

may not be much, but it might make the magma flow farther away from the magma chamber

 

 

 

now to produce electricity

 

on top of the tunnel, (with heat conducting elements embedded in the concrete)

 

since the magma will probably melt some of the concrete, but not all

 

the mix should be able to cunduct heat

 

this heat would then boil water to run a steam turbine

 

 

 

ok , did i miss anything

[Eclogite]

i applaud your imagination, but question your grasp of basic principles. When I get a moment I shall respond more fully.

[Turtle]

...this is how i envision it

2 tunnels

 

far enough apart so when the magma chamber is vented it does not blow a hole to the other tunnel

...

ok , did i miss anything

 

the position, size, and numbers of the tunnels is irrelevant. as soon as you come close enough to the magma chamber to decompress it, it will jet-blow a hole to kingdom come. :lightning

 

Hydrodynamic aspects of explosive eruptions of volcanoes: simulation problems (underlining mine.)

Abstract

The paper offers a short survey of experimental results on simulation of processes of explosive volcano eruptions, based on the method of hydrodynamic pulse shock tubes. The experiments show that the development of cavitation in the magma under the effect of decompression waves is characterized by the formation of bubbly clusters and their transformation into a system of arbitrary distributed slugs as a result of bubble coalescence. As a consequence, the magma flow turns out to be stratified into a system of vertical jets of spatial form, which then disintegrate into individual fragments. An unsteady multiphase mathematical model is created to study the dynamics of the magma state at the initial stage of the explosive eruption. This model takes into account nucleation and diffusive processes, gravity, and dynamically changing viscosity. The results of numerical studies performed within the framework of this model showed that the magma state in 6–7 s (after the beginning of decompression) is characterized by the flow glass transition, if the processes of bubble coalescence are ignored. The flow includes “frozen-in” 0.3-mm-thick bubbles, and the magma viscosity increases by 6–7 orders in the degassing process.

 

 

then what!!?

mystery of the megavolcano

...The destructive power unleashed by supervolcanoes goes far beyond that of any eruption in recorded human history. Picture an eruption blasting 10 miles into the stratosphere, raining down ash and rock over an entire continent. Picture a worldwide fog of sulfuric acid droplets released high into the atmosphere, dimming the sun and plunging the Earth into a global "volcanic winter." These monsters lurking within Earth's crust dwarf the likes of Vesuvius, Pinatubo, and Mount St. Helens. And they are hiding all around us, in Italy, New Zealand, Japan, even the United States. ...

 

instead of loving life & letting it be, you wiped it out. :doh: nice move.

[belovelife]

well 35 bucks for the document i don't have

but, if this pressure issue demands a soulution fo a potential vent, then why not just increase the pressue with some of the carbon dioxide from coal power plants

 

:coffee_n_pc: :circle: :umno: :rant: :naughty: :smart: :thumbs_up :thumbs_do

 

sequestering the gas in the magma, and preventing the gasses from evacuating the magma, with a few added pressure regulators that allow gasses to escape at a

maximum tunnel pressure level, then this should solve the issue

 

right?

 

 

 

( i forgot about the dissolved gas thing, i knew about it, too)

 

all i'm saying is that if we put our minds together, it should be possible

[Turtle]

no. moreover, this belongs in strange claims and not earth science. i read something you wrote recently which disinclines me to favor you with further patience.

to whit:

its annoying isn't it

 

somtimes i relate things to threads that others do not find fitting, but i donot battle

 

i just start a new thread on the subject

 

the it that annoys you i believe refers to getting replies noting erros you make. it seems to me you have no intention of conducting a scientific discussion on this or any of your thread topics. you pose some drippy eyed imaginary proposal, one of us takes the time to give you a well reasoned & researched rebuttal, and you blow us off. well knock it off. :rant: it is unappreciated, unwelcome, and unloving. :naughty:

[belovelife]

really..... :(

i did not blow off your proposal, i simply took it into consideration and offered an alternative

[Eclogite]

Engineering has produced some amazing solutions that a few decades or a century earlier might have looked almost miraculous. Also, I dislike saying that this or that is impossible. However, I am disinclined to take your proposal seriously. You do not seem to have a very good grasp of the subject matter. Here are some examples:

• You refer to acquiring a sample of the mantle. That is not possible by simply tunneling into the magma chamber.
  
• Concrete does not melt.
  
• Imposing a vacuum in your tunnels is only going to reduce pressures by 1 bar - hardly of any significance whatsoever.
  
• You do not seem to have made any provision for the magma to be released, so it will solidify over time and no further thermal energy will be extractable.
  

 

There are simply too many things wrong with your proposal to take it seriously.

[belovelife]

Engineering has produced some amazing solutions that a few decades or a century earlier might have looked almost miraculous. Also, I dislike saying that this or that is impossible. However, I am disinclined to take your proposal seriously. You do not seem to have a very good grasp of the subject matter. Here are some examples:

• You refer to acquiring a sample of the mantle. That is not possible by simply tunneling into the magma chamber.
• Concrete does not melt.
• Imposing a vacuum in your tunnels is only going to reduce pressures by 1 bar - hardly of any significance whatsoever.
• You do not seem to have made any provision for the magma to be released, so it will solidify over time and no further thermal energy will be extractable.

 

There are simply too many things wrong with your proposal to take it seriously.

the sample of the mantle would be gathered after it cools, being insulated by a shell of concrete and earth, it would prevent the chamber from cooling until the geo thermal electrical production process were complete for the chamber

 

if concrete would not melt while being subjected to the high temperatures of magma, the whole thing would be more simple, as far as i know there is no material that would not melt under that extremely high temperature

 

 

 

the vacume idea is simply trying to take into account the varyables in the process, if the magma reacts violently and uncontrollable if the dissolved gasses are released, then a vacume would not be the answer, mabe increasing pressure is, this is a topic that needs alot of thought and input on it, like i said, if we put our minds together, there should be a solution

[belovelife]

if one of these were made i say japan, and there was an earthquake, what sort of safety features would yo suggest putting in?

[Eclogite]

the sample of the mantle would be gathered after it cools,

You seem to be confused. The mantle is many kilometres below the magma chamber. You seem to be using mantle and magma as if they were equivalents. They are not. The mantle is that solid portion of the Earth below the crust and above the core. Magma is molten rock which in this instance is occupying a chamber below Yellowstone, or the supervolcano of your choice.

 

being insulated by a shell of concrete and earth, it would prevent the chamber from cooling until the geo thermal electrical production process were complete for the chamber

You are confusing me. Previously you spoke of harnessing the geothermal energy from the tunnel. Now you are talking about harnessing it from the chamber. Can you clarify by being more specific please?

 

 

 

if concrete would not melt while being subjected to the high temperatures of magma, the whole thing would be more simple, as far as i know there is no material that would not melt under that extremely high temperature

since this is a science forum I think it is important (and useful) to use correct terms. Concrete will decompose when subject to high temperatures, but it will not melt.

 

 

 

the vacume idea is simply trying to take into account the varyables in the process, if the magma reacts violently and uncontrollable if the dissolved gasses are released, then a vacume would not be the answer, mabe increasing pressure is, this is a topic that needs alot of thought and input on it, like i said, if we put our minds together, there should be a solution

I think the solution is simple: don't try this at home. To implement this you have several major issues to deal with:

 

1.There are currently no tunneling mechanisms available that could tolerate the temperatures that will be experienced as you approach the magma chamber. How would you plan to deal with this?

2.We do not know how explosively the magma would react when pressure is relieved by penetration by the tunnel. How would you plan to address this?

3.the geothermal energy available from the magma that enters the tunnel would be extremely limited. How would you justify the expense?

4. Since, in fact, you could not justify the expense, how would you go about tapping the geothermal energy of the chamber?

5. How would you deal with the political objections?

 

if one of these were made i say japan, and there was an earthquake, what sort of safety features would yo suggest putting in?

Purchase airline tickets for everyone.

[belovelife]

:smart:

 

 

 

First of all, i think you miss the general idea, the idea is to vent a magma chamber, and produce geo thermal energy.

Specifically by cooling down the magma in the tunnel, after the magma chamber is vented, by drawing the heat energy off the tunnel.

 

I apologize for misusing terms to define ideas, now as far as i know, there is nothing that will not melt when magma comes in contact with it, that is not to say that there isn't,

 

but considering the extremely high temperatures involved, this varyable has to be taken into consideration. Where increased size of a concreate tunnel's wall thickness, coupled with even

 

reinforcement steel, would create a buffer zone that holds tunnel stability while transfering heat.

 

quote

 

1.There are currently no tunneling mechanisms available that could tolerate the temperatures that will be experienced as you approach the magma chamber. How would you plan to deal with this?

2.We do not know how explosively the magma would react when pressure is relieved by penetration by the tunnel. How would you plan to address this?

3.the geothermal energy available from the magma that enters the tunnel would be extremely limited. How would you justify the expense?

4. Since, in fact, you could not justify the expense, how would you go about tapping the geothermal energy of the chamber?

5. How would you deal with the political objections?

 

end quote

 

1. There was a teqnique developed where a suit was made for people to enter deep caves that were very hot, where the suit had water flowing drawing the heat away from the person, this concept

 

could be adapted for machenery, where the machinery if kept at a stable temperature and the flow of coolant could also cool the drilling bit.

 

2. Do a mini, exploritory venting into a smaller chamber, with scientific devices to measure and graph data:

 

pressure increase vs time,

 

heat increase vs time,

 

functional tool use,

 

integrity of chamber

 

sonic imgaing of chamber

 

etc.

 

3. the limitation of availible heat energy would be measured by the volume of the tunnel, this is potentiall very large, and once a process is perfected, a single chamber can be tapped multiple times,

 

the scientific data , the minerals in the cooled magma, and the energy produced should more than cover the cost of doing an exploration project

 

 

 

4. i would run a steam turbine to produce the energy

 

5. the political objections would be based on scientific reasoning, while i agree there should be 2 sides, one against , one for, i believe that each scientist should take both sides, considering the danger

 

and multiple disaster scenerios, so for every problem, one should think of a solution, for every solution one should think of a problem, etc.

 

while at the same time, we have launched to the moon, we have tunneled under a great sea, we have created hundreds of miles of mining tunnels, we have scientific instruments that can using sound, get a picture of a magma chamber

 

we have done all these things, with any project of this size , there should be opposition based on worse case scenerios, but those who have the largest opposition, should have the mind to find a solution to issues

 

 

 

and as far as a plane ticket goes, get them one now, there is radiation in their food,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[belovelife]

i apologize for the repeat of the question, but what kind of reinforcements and or pocketed sealants (ie if wall cracks mix epoxy, seal chamber) could be done to secure safety

 

in the event of a volcano's magma chamber being tapped to produce an everlasting clean source of energy, and an earthquake occuring, ?(say a 8.0)

[Turtle]

i apologize for the repeat of the question, but what kind of reinforcements and or pocketed sealants (ie if wall cracks mix epoxy, seal chamber) could be done to secure safety

 

in the event of a volcano's magma chamber being tapped to produce an everlasting clean source of energy, and an earthquake occuring, ?(say a 8.0)

 

i find your apology disingenuous. perhaps i wasn't clear. your postings are not part of a scientific solution, they are part of a scientific ignorance problem. let's all review your context:

 

lets start a vote, all those in favor of my posts being more stuctured, say I, all opposed say nay, you can pm me

 

somtimes i relate things to threads that others do not find fitting, but i donot battle

 

i just start a new thread on the subject

 

wouldn't it be awesome to link all the science forums, along with translators and stuff so things would sound different but still get the idea "translated from english to hippie"

 

if we all united and talked man, we could understand what we were saying, with out the man bringing us down

 

my initial complaint of your blowing off thoughtfull replies to you was as much in defense of eclogite as of myself. while he has endeavored to favor you with yet more scientific informational posts, you have intentionally ignored them in favor of your hippy retorts. inspite of your claim to not battle, you neg-repped me in this thread in retaliation. so much for peace man.

 

i have reported your last post & requested this thread be moved to strange claims where it belongs. my complaints and report are well within our rules and i will further complain & report in no uncertain terms the ill-intended continuence of your unstructured posts and/or retaliatory actions. i am not amused.

[Qfwfq]

Turtle I don't think he's doing it on purpose, I think he's an inquisitive mind who lacks competence, that's all. He seems to be asking more questions than making claims, but I guess it takes quite a bit to fill him in.

 

i apologize for the repeat of the question, but what kind of reinforcements and or pocketed sealants (ie if wall cracks mix epoxy, seal chamber) could be done to secure safety

 

in the event of a volcano's magma chamber being tapped to produce an everlasting clean source of energy, and an earthquake occuring, ?(say a 8.0)

Man, are you aware of the sheer scale of these things? Have a look through these sites about Krakatoa:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1203028/Will-Krakatoa-rock-world-Last-time-killed-thousands-changed-weather-years-deadlier.html

http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Krakatau.html

http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/interior/Krakatoa.html

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/krakatoa/krakatoa.html

[Turtle]

Turtle I don't think he's doing it on purpose, I think he's an inquisitive mind who lacks competence, that's all. He seems to be asking more questions than making claims, but I guess it takes quite a bit to fill him in.

...

 

well, i don't see it as unintentional given the context and content of this character's postings. lovy's lack of competence i agree with, but that is no excuse for dismissing the competence of others out of hand. as you well know, the production of geothermal electrical power is a well established discipline and i find the continuance of this kind of pipe dream claptrap effrontery to the integrity of our board and to the methods and means of scientific enquiry. i can only assert my position and if you and the other staff members are currently content to entertain such temerity then so be it. maybe i just need to fire up a spliff, eh? :esmoking: