Questions For Christians

[phillip1882]

i've tried very hard to believe, that there is a God, that there is someone out there watching over everything taking care of everything. But the more i look around the harder i find it to believe. war, poverty, disease, death, and the ice capades; these are not good works. these do not belong on a resume of a supreme being.

-george carlin

 

question #1: how do you love an invisible incorpeal being?

no matter how you slice it, God is inexcessible to us. yes you can pray to him, but that's not love. yes you can do things in his name, but agian, that's not love. in order to love something you need a real physical interaction. loving God is the equivalent of a child loving his imaginary friend.

question #2: do aliens need to believe?

acording to the bible we are basically born unworthy of God's love. the only way to redeem ourselves is through faith in christ. this however fails badly when you consider the fact that the chinese had no knowledge of any of the events in the bible prior to chirstian misionaries bringing them the message only roughly 600 years ago. did every chinese prior to that go to hell?

the universe is extrodanarly huge, at least 30 billion light years across. there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies in the known universe. do aliens need to believe in jesus in order to be saved?

question #3: what makes you think God is love?

chirstians proclaim that, outside the bible, there is no reason to believe that God is love. it'd go one step futher, and proclaim that from within the bible as well there's no reason to believe this. God commands blind respect and obediance. his punishments for not doing so can range from murder to eternal torment. that seems more like the qualifications of a malevolant tyrant than a loving father figure.

[Hawkins]

question #1: how do you love an invisible incorpeal being?

no matter how you slice it, God is inexcessible to us. yes you can pray to him, but that's not love. yes you can do things in his name, but agian, that's not love. in order to love something you need a real physical interaction. loving God is the equivalent of a child loving his imaginary friend.

question #2: do aliens need to believe?

 

How do you know that God is inaccessible to us? The Bible says that He keeps contacting His witnesses, such that they can write a book called Bible for other to believe with faith. Love is about perception, it is quite a personal feeling. You don't do empircal scienfic research of love, do you? So how do you know that others won't perceive love from God? Moreover, there are roughly 1/3 humans beings believe in Jesus and I do think that the majority of them might feel His love. Perhaps it is you who is an issue when you treat 1/3 humans as 'abnormal'.

 

acording to the bible we are basically born unworthy of God's love. the only way to redeem ourselves is through faith in christ. this however fails badly when you consider the fact that the chinese had no knowledge of any of the events in the bible prior to chirstian misionaries bringing them the message only roughly 600 years ago. did every chinese prior to that go to hell?

 

You need to admit that a human mind is limited. The problem may be in how you comprehended what is said in the Bible instead of a problem of the Christianity. Fairness is built on Law, faith in Jesus is a Grace. If you look for fairness, you need to go back to Law. Law is where the fairness is for everyone. Grace on the other hand, is like a gift. You can grant a gift to whoever you want. God made a sacrifice, while men get a gift for free. The Second Covenant brought us by Jesus Christ is a Grace/gift. He has all the right to grant it to whoever He likes. Yet it's fair enough that everyone who ever heard of the gospel can choose to get this gift. As for the ancient Chinese (or anyone who never heard of the gospel), just get back to His fair Law.

 

the universe is extrodanarly huge, at least 30 billion light years across. there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies in the known universe. do aliens need to believe in jesus in order to be saved?

 

'the universe is so large that there must be aliens' <------ hope that you realize that this is a faith statement. If you assume to soon that they do exist, why not just try to ask them instead of us Christians?

 

question #3: what makes you think God is love?

chirstians proclaim that, outside the bible, there is no reason to believe that God is love. it'd go one step futher, and proclaim that from within the bible as well there's no reason to believe this. God commands blind respect and obediance. his punishments for not doing so can range from murder to eternal torment. that seems more like the qualifications of a malevolant tyrant than a loving father figure.

 

Love is relative to an object, and possibly there is a time frame there too. For example, when you say that you like apples, here apples are the object your liking is expressed. And I bet that you never like rotten apples with worms inside. So you like apples only before they turn rotten. Moreover, a tyrant to the wolves can be an extremely loving Shepherd to the sheep.

[phillip1882]

How do you know that God is inaccessible to us?

i've never heard a voice in my head that i would attribute to God. nor would any sane individual proclaim such.

i've never seen, touched, smelled or felt him. nor has anyone else to my knowledge, in a way that can be tested.

Love is about perception, it is quite a personal feeling. You don't do empirical scientific research of love, do you?

err yes you do. do a Google search on scientists research in to the emotion of love.

So how do you know that others won't perceive love from God? Moreover, there are roughly 1/3 humans beings believe in Jesus and I do think that the majority of them might feel His love. Perhaps it is you who is an issue when you treat 1/3 humans as 'abnormal'.

i treat all human beings the same. it's Christians who think 2/3 of the world its out of whack and need saving.

You need to admit that a human mind is limited. The problem may be in how you comprehended what is said in the Bible instead of a problem of the Christianity. Fairness is built on Law, faith in Jesus is a Grace.

If you look for fairness, you need to go back to Law. Law is where the fairness is for everyone. Grace on the other hand, is like a gift. You can grant a gift to whoever you want. God made a sacrifice, while men get a gift for free. The Second Covenant brought us by Jesus Christ is a Grace/gift. He has all the right to grant it to whoever He likes. Yet it's fair enough that everyone who ever heard of the gospel can choose to get this gift. As for the ancient Chinese (or anyone who never heard of the gospel), just get back to His fair Law.

okay God's "fair" law is this. you were supposed to be perfect and your not. therefore you need to be punished in some way.

unless you ask for forgiveness. then he might punish you anyway, bu reward you if you keep on believing. battered wife syndrome anyone?

the universe is so large that there must be aliens' <------ hope that you realize that this is a faith statement. If you assume to soon that they do exist, why not just try to ask them instead of us Christians?

of course i realize that that's part of my point i have at least as much proof in the existence of aliens and christian do in god.

[Rade]

Grace on the other hand, is like a gift.

Not so. When I give someone a clothing gift for birthday, it is not given with any intent that the person I give it to must respond to accept it as a definition of a good response. Perhaps it does not fit, or wrong color, etc. Thus, not accepting a gift presented to any human can also be a good moral action. Humans, unlike God, give a gift because the act of giving in-of-itself is viewed to be something humans value as a good action. But this is not the way of God as relates to Grace.

 

God demands that humans respond in only one way to Grace for their response to be valued as a good moral action by God. Humans MUST accept the Grace presented by God for their response to be valued by God as being a good response, e.g., reward of eternity in heaven after death. Rejection of Grace is never allowed by God if the end for a human is to be a good result, unlike the act of giving a gift, where both acceptance and rejection can be viewed as morally correct response.

 

Thus, the Grace of God is no kind of gift to any human. Grace of God is nothing more than a concept of unearned forgiveness invented by humans to justify, and get away with, evading morality in interactions with other humans.

[Deepwater6]

I don't believe in any organised religion, but I do believe there is a higher power. If people pursue Christianty, Judaism, or Islam to get fulfilled what difference should it make to someone who doesn't?

 

I believe everyone should be able to choose to worship whatever they want, but when they start pushing it on me then I have a problem with it. Likewise when adamant non-believers start pushing their beliefs I get puzzled. Why would either go out of their way or care what the other does if doesn't effect them? Of course extremism is a whole different argument.

 

I would like to know where Noah put the Beavers, Termites, and Woodpeckers on the ark for all those month's though.

[dduckwessel]

I have no religious affiliation but was some time ago an Evangelical Christian so I think I'm in a good position to comment.

 

Wars, disease, suffering and aging itself, reveals quite clearly that the Christian God (or God of both the OT and NT) could not have created this reality. If he were the creator of it there would be no suffering of any kind and we would live forever (the consistent need and effort to feed, clothe and house the physical body alone reveals great inferiority).

 

Certainly the earth is not devoid of good things (at times) but overall it's not a friendly place for many of its inhabitants and the universe itself seems more unfriendly to human habitation.

 

Bible writings say (and something Christians seem to miss) that another is the creator of this reality (2 Cor. 4:4, 1 John 5:19, John 12:31, John 14:30). If it was created by God, Jesus would not have been killed (John 8:23, John 18:36) but would have been honored instead!

[SaxonViolence]

I will admit that my own relationship to God is rather intellectual.

 

I believe that God exists. I believe that he makes certain demands of us, but that if we satisfy those demands, we will be rewarded far out of proportion to anything that we've invested.

 

I believe that--but it is very hard for me to "Feel it".

 

Yet when I go to church, I see a great many people who are blessed to "Feel" the presence of God far more than I do.

 

Some people get so happy hearing the word of God that they jump up and down or fall to the floor and roll around. I've seen them run laps around the Sanctuary.

 

Everyone has heard the story of the little old man (or Arthritic old lady) who jumps up on a pew, and walks along the back as if it were a balance beam. In sone versions, the old man hurdles across the Aisle to continue his walk on the back of the Pew on the other side of the gap.

 

I sincerely hope that I can get to see that one day.

 

I have prayed to have manifestations like that.

 

I fasted and prayed for Four days, to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

 

I have to be careful about my fasting now,since I'm Diabetic.....

 

And I haven't been to church in awhile, due to just feeling too bad to get up in the Morning and prepare to go.....

 

Love God?

 

Like the one Dude, in the one of the Gospels said, "I believe, help my unbelief".

 

I often Pray, "God, I love you and respect you, but not nearly so much as I should. Help me to improve."

 

My father died a decade ago. I have very little doubt that he went to be with Jesus.

 

My mother Died a few years later.

 

I should love God for his own sake.....

 

But I dearly love him because of the Family reunion he makes possible when I die.

 

There isn't a day that goes by, that I don't look forward to seeing so many of my family and friends again.

 

A few years ago, I had congestive heart failure. I'd fallen to my knees in a huge parking lot--in a wind-blown sleeting rain.

 

The cold wind stole my breath away.

 

I couldn't seem to breath--

 

And the only two thoughts that I had were: "I wish the pain would stop", and "Soon I'll get to meet Jesus and hug my Father again."

 

No fear--none.....

 

Just a very strong anticipation.

 

We are commanded to Love God, and to Praise him. I suspect that we all fall short on that score to some degree--some more than others--but we're not going to be accepted into Heaven on the Basis of our good works, but by Grace.

 

Saxon Violence

[sigurdV]

In the beginning religion was an attempt to understand Reality.

But it has devolved into a trap for minds unsure of their part in it.

Get Real and let go of Fantasy

[pamela]

In the beginning religion was an attempt to understand Reality.

But it has devolved into a trap for minds unsure of their part in it.

Get Real and let go of Fantasy

Seriously, contribute something relevant to the discussion and stop with the religion bashing. This forum is not set up for preaching nor trashing.

[dduckwessel]

I will admit that my own relationship to God is rather intellectual.

 

I believe that God exists. I believe that he makes certain demands of us, but that if we satisfy those demands, we will be rewarded far out of proportion to anything that we've invested.

 

Isn't that more like fear?

 

I believe that--but it is very hard for me to "Feel it".

 

Yet when I go to church, I see a great many people who are blessed to "Feel" the presence of God far more than I do.

 

Is it at all possible that they are simply more open to suggestion and let their emotions run rampant?

 

Some people get so happy hearing the word of God that they jump up and down or fall to the floor and roll around. I've seen them run laps around the Sanctuary.

 

I've seen it too but don't you think they just look crazy? Afterall the Bible admonishes people 'not' to do those things. Just because everyone's doing it, doesn't make it right.

 

Everyone has heard the story of the little old man (or Arthritic old lady) who jumps up on a pew, and walks along the back as if it were a balance beam. In sone versions, the old man hurdles across the Aisle to continue his walk on the back of the Pew on the other side of the gap.

 

I sincerely hope that I can get to see that one day.

 

Hmmm...sounds like my friend that had serious arthritis and went to a healing meeting...the preacher grabbed her and ran around the room and pronounced her healed...she told me that she was hurtin pretty bad the next day and that he had nearly killed her...

 

I fasted and prayed for Four days, to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

 

I have to be careful about my fasting now,since I'm Diabetic.....

 

Do you really believe that a good God would make you beg for it and possibly cause you to go into a diabetic coma before he would help you?

 

And I haven't been to church in awhile, due to just feeling too bad to get up in the Morning and prepare to go.....

 

I don't want to increase what sounds to me like depression...but honestly you seem to me to be someone that is referred to as 'legalistic' in some religious circles.

 

Love God?

 

Like the one Dude, in the one of the Gospels said, "I believe, help my unbelief".

 

I often Pray, "God, I love you and respect you, but not nearly so much as I should. Help me to improve."

 

God would never be demanding but would love you just the way you are. It sounds to me that you do not love yourself.

 

My father died a decade ago. I have very little doubt that he went to be with Jesus.

 

My mother Died a few years later.

 

I am truly sorry to hear this as you sound very lonely to me. I think you may need help due to depression because of your loss!

 

I should love God for his own sake.....

 

God has big shoulders, we're the ones in need of his love.

 

We are commanded to Love God, and to Praise him. I suspect that we all fall short on that score to some degree--some more than others--but we're not going to be accepted into Heaven on the Basis of our good works, but by Grace.

Saxon Violence

 

Saxon it sounds to me as if you are not under grace, but under 'the works of the law'. Remember that Jesus' yoke is easy and his burden is light.

 

Is there a hobby you enjoy? I think you need to get around people more and just do fun (but healthy) activities.

[sigurdV]

question #1: how do you love an invisible incorpeal being?

 

question #2: do aliens need to believe?

 

question #3: what makes you think God is love?

 

Hi!

If it is ok with you Ill try to answer your questions, but I should point out Im no Christian.

 

1 By loving Reality and trying to improve on it.

2 Believe what? They really should believe in Reality :)

3 I dont believe God is love, its a harmless approximation.

[pamela]

ugh tried to edit my post and it deleted :(

[pamela]

I will admit that my own relationship to God is rather intellectual.

 

I believe that God exists. I believe that he makes certain demands of us, but that if we satisfy those demands, we will be rewarded far out of proportion to anything that we've invested.

 

I believe that--but it is very hard for me to "Feel it".

 

Yet when I go to church, I see a great many people who are blessed to "Feel" the presence of God far more than I do.

 

Some people get so happy hearing the word of God that they jump up and down or fall to the floor and roll around. I've seen them run laps around the Sanctuary.

 

Everyone has heard the story of the little old man (or Arthritic old lady) who jumps up on a pew, and walks along the back as if it were a balance beam. In sone versions, the old man hurdles across the Aisle to continue his walk on the back of the Pew on the other side of the gap.

 

I sincerely hope that I can get to see that one day.

 

I have prayed to have manifestations like that.

 

I fasted and prayed for Four days, to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

 

I have to be careful about my fasting now,since I'm Diabetic.....

 

And I haven't been to church in awhile, due to just feeling too bad to get up in the Morning and prepare to go.....

 

Love God?

 

Like the one Dude, in the one of the Gospels said, "I believe, help my unbelief".

 

I often Pray, "God, I love you and respect you, but not nearly so much as I should. Help me to improve."

 

My father died a decade ago. I have very little doubt that he went to be with Jesus.

 

My mother Died a few years later.

 

I should love God for his own sake.....

 

But I dearly love him because of the Family reunion he makes possible when I die.

 

There isn't a day that goes by, that I don't look forward to seeing so many of my family and friends again.

 

A few years ago, I had congestive heart failure. I'd fallen to my knees in a huge parking lot--in a wind-blown sleeting rain.

 

The cold wind stole my breath away.

 

I couldn't seem to breath--

 

And the only two thoughts that I had were: "I wish the pain would stop", and "Soon I'll get to meet Jesus and hug my Father again."

 

No fear--none.....

 

Just a very strong anticipation.

 

We are commanded to Love God, and to Praise him. I suspect that we all fall short on that score to some degree--some more than others--but we're not going to be accepted into Heaven on the Basis of our good works, but by Grace.

 

Saxon Violence

basically a recap of what took me 30 minutes to type and then subsequently lose-grrr

The Bible states that you should go by faith and not look for some sign from God. It is not your works or fasting that is pleasing to God, but your faith.I sympathise with your loss Sax, but it sounds like you are buying a ticket to see your parents. You should reflect on whether you believe in a god of love or a vindictive one holding a record against you.

[dduckwessel]

I would like to know where Noah put the Beavers, Termites, and Woodpeckers on the ark for all those month's though.

 

It's an interesting question. One could explain that the ark was covered (inside and out, Gen. 6:14) with pitch (something like tar) to waterproof it. I'm assuming a thick enough layer when hardened would prevent any tampering with the wood!

 

However, and strangely, the word 'pitch' has these meanings (BlueLetterBible.org):

 

1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

a) (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch

1) to cover over, pacify, propitiate

2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for

3) to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites

c) (Pual)

1) to be covered over

2) to make atonement for

d) (Hithpael) to be covered

 

price of a life, ransom, bribe

2) asphalt, pitch (as a covering)

3) the henna plant, name of a plant (henna?)

4) village

 

 

I don't believe there were any insects, except what the animals brought in their fur. Insects would have been lodged in trees and subterranean levels and so unaffected by a flood.

 

After the Ark was supposedly built, it says:

"God shut him in" (Gen. 7:16). There was "more than one person" so what does it mean that God only shut Noah (presumably) in?

 

God had not intervened in the building of the Ark but then apparently he was the one to 'shut the door' if that's what it means to "shut him in"!

 

Then there is this apparent discrepancy:

"And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life." (Gen. 7:15-17)

 

but Gen. 7:2 says: "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

 

There's no discrepancy here as this occurs frequently in these writings where one verse gives some information and another verse will confirm that point but add other information.

 

According to geological data however, there is no evidence of a worldwide flood:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/p82.htm

 

This means that either it was a more localized flood or that the story has been misunderstood.

 

It's only in relation to the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 37) that we will get a better idea of what Noah's Ark was really all about.

[dduckwessel]

question #2: do aliens need to believe?

the universe is extrodanarly huge, at least 30 billion light years across. there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies in the known universe. do aliens need to believe in jesus in order to be saved?

 

as far as I know, no aliens (dead or alive) have ever been produced so the question is irrelevant - but if they did exist then God does not judge by appearances but "looks at the heart"

[SaxonViolence]

It is interesting that two well-spoken people believe that I'm a legalist.

 

I am a Member of the Church of God in Christ {C.O.G.I.C.}

 

You have to use the abbreviation to find the Organization online, but abbreviating the words "God" and "Christ" is very controversial in some factions of our Church.

 

It may interest some to know that C.O.G.I.C.--Although they welcome everyone with friendship and open arms--has traditionally been a Black Church, and even today most congregations are either totally Black, or with no more than two or three White members.

 

I wouldn't mention this facet at all--except it may be informative to know that I'm White, and attend a Black Church.

 

The C.O.G.I.C. is a Pentecostal Holiness Church, very Wesleyan--Although the Organization seems to permit huge amounts of latitude to it's Elders, to preach various forms of Heterodoxy--at least, so it seems to me.

 

I grew up Baptist, and read and reread the works of the Rice Brothers.

 

Holiness is a Good thing, and I think many Churches simply ignore it, or neglect it to a greater or Lesser degree.....

 

But I am a Strong believer in "Eternal Security"

 

Holding to the most extreme form (Unless you want to go straight-up Universalist) That "Once Saved, Always Safe".....

 

I used to have long debates with some of the Ministers and Missionaries in Sunday School on these, and other topics.

 

However, we are expected to make some effort to avoid Sin, and not to simply shrug and embrace it.

 

I said the rewards are out of all proportion to the effort.

 

Doesn't the Bible say that if you so much as donate a Glass of Water to a Prophet, you will reap a Prophet's Reward--That is a huge return on a very small investment.

 

And Paul urges us--in addition to Love, Charity, and being a Good Example--to make a Positive Effort to pile up Heavenly Rewards.

 

I wasn't Diabetic when I fasted four days--that was back in 1977.

 

When I first joined the Church, I was urged to seek the Ministry. I had my doubts, however once I finally decided to actively seek a Minister's Title, there were all sorts of "Problems"

 

I wear my hair long--cutting it , and waiting for it to grow back is a Traumatic Experience for me.

 

Sure Paul asked once, if a man's long hair wasn't a disgrace--and I honestly believe that if I get my Time Machine working, and brush up on my Aramaic--that I can talk Paul out of that position--if he only knew the controversy that it would cause over the centuries, that he would have used another analogy. :)

 

Anyway, that's the same place where he says that a Woman's head should be Veiled, and they shouldn't say a word in Church.

 

My Church doesn't enforce those Mandates.

 

Secondly, I was unemployed and had no income. A Minister is expected to attend a larger set of functions, and maintain a certain Standard of Dress.....

 

Now I told them straight up, I don't do Either Ties, or Shirt Tucks.....

 

"That's fine, but we can't have you sitting up front with the Ministers and looking like little Abner."

 

Third, some time ago, I decided to wear only Black. I'm very heavy. I like Black. When I was working in the factory or slaughter houses, black didn't stain as easily.....

 

And I just like the image.

 

My Elder tells me that wearing Black worsens my Depression. The Church has no problem with all Black--but in my case, he thinks it would help my Depression.....

 

For awhile, I tried going to Church sans Black, but it Grieved me to spend good money on Blue Jeans and Purple Turtle necks, when for the same amount of money, I could have bought Black ones.

 

Anyway, ask me, "SV, if you knew for a fact, that abandoning your Black Wardrobe would completely cure your Depression, would you do it?"

 

"No, I would not, it is too high a price to pay."

 

Besides, I got tired of trying to maintain two separate Wardrobes. So I went back to solid Black.

 

That is a Strike against me being a Minister, because I'm not fully submitted to his Authority.

 

So anyway, one has to be a Minister for at least three years to be elevated to Elder. I've seen several Friends elevated to Minister against their will and better Judgement, and several of them are Elders now--and I can't seem to get to 1st Base.

 

Be all that as it may.

 

I gave up going to Church because A. It is a major chore for me to get dressed, shoed, and ready to leave the house. I often go a month or two without setting foot outside my house.

 

B. I have Sleep Apnea, and it had gotten to where I invariably fell asleep--and it really didn't make sense to get dressed, and drive across the River to take a Nap.

 

I am not convicted about not going--but I'm sure some think that I'm back on the Hell-Bound Express because I quit going.

 

When I get back to going: I have a Reasonable Wardrobe, including Suit Jacket and both Black and Bright Turtle-Necks.

 

I am going to be much more insistent on getting a Minister's License. I never thought God needed Snitches, nor do I feel compelled to comment on other people's behavior.....

 

Yet I know that Men were elevated to Minister and Elder, and women elevated to Missionary, with faults that cause my hair, Eternal Security message, and my Minor lack of Obedience to be laughably inconsequential. Some of them have been lambasted from the Pulpit, in front of everyone, for some of these faults.

 

Lonely--not precisely. I have three wonderful Dogs, a Sister, and Dozens of Internet Friends.

 

I do miss my Father a great deal--no one else can fill that void he left.....

 

And my Mother to some degree--though I was her primary care-giver through several years of near Helplessness, and I'm far more at peace with her going--and Honestly, I was much closer to my Father.

 

Depression: That's one of the reasons that I draw disability. I have been on 80Mg of Prozack up until a week ago, and I'm still taking 50Mg of Elevil.....

 

The only bad effect that I've seen so far, to cutting out the Prozac, is a tendency to put far more words into mt Forum Posts, and I was always Verbose.

 

Saxon Violence

[pamela]

woah....

Sax you don't have to defend your beliefs or give your background. You are who you are and what you believe is your own.I apologise if i have offended you, as that was not my intent. You laid your POV out there and it seemed to hold underlying guilt and condemnation, which are often the result of organised religion and a slanted interpretation from the Church's various factions and sects.