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#35 Turtle

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 02:39 PM

[quote name='dduckwessel' timestamp='1322770039' post='312213']
I think you're right, Mr. Hawking has made the best of a bad situation and I'm sure invested lots in the hopes of finding a cure for his condition, which I read is progressive in nature. I personally think that any future cure for a condition such as his must be administered inutero, before the damage becomes irreversible.

I can't help thinking that something like Lorenzo's Oil (http://en.wikipedia....oleukodystrophy) is the key because some of the same symptoms that affected Lorenzo, also affect Mr. Hawking...
[/quote]

applying some personal/arbitrary index to the quality of life for anyone other than one's self is not only an exercise in futility, it is unwarrantable. tend to your own knitting. :knit:

as to lorenzo's oil it has not been found effective for ALD, let alone in any way shown to extend life.

Lorenzo's Oil @ wiki
[quotename='wilty petal']...
Lorenzo's oil, in combination with a diet low in VLCFA, has been investigated for its possible effects on the progression of ALD. Clinical results have been mixed and the use of Lorenzo's oil has been controversial due to uncertainties regarding its clinical efficacy and the clinical indications for its use.[6]

Hugo Moser played a prominent role in both the treatment of Lorenzo Odone and the scientific evaluation of Lorezo's oil. In 2005, Moser published a controlled study concluding that Lorenzo's oil does not alter the course of the illness in symptomatic patients, but asymptomatic patients had a reduced risk of developing ALD while on the dietary therapy.[7] Moser appraised Lorezo's oil again in a 2007 report.[8]

Moser's findings, that Lorenzo's oil did not help symptomatic ALD patients, are consistent with prior studies published in 2003[9] and 1999.[10][6]

A study by Poulos found that Lorenzo's oil is of limited value in correcting the accumulation of saturated VLCFAs in the brain of patients with ALD.[11] Comparative autopsies showed that treatment enriched erucic acid in plasma and tissues, but not in the brain.[12]

Side Effects
The oil has been shown to cause a lowered platelet count.[13] Erucic acid is considered to be a toxin, and its presence in the food supply is regulated.[14][15]

Current state
In summary, dietary manipulation using Lorenzo's oil has been shown to lower blood levels of very long chain fatty acids, but it is ineffective in symptomatic ALD. However, studies by Dr. Hugo Moser have found evidence that use of the oil by asymptomatic patients may slightly delay the onset of symptoms.[7]

In the U.S., Lorenzo's oil is currently only available to patients taking part in a clinical trial at the Kennedy Krieger Institute.[citation needed] This trial was formerly held under the direction of Dr. Hugo Moser, until Moser's death in 2007. Moser's team, Dr. Gerald Raymond and Ann Moser continue the trial and his work with the leukodystrophies.
...[/quote]

#36 sigurdV

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:25 PM

There are groups out there like Humanity+ who believe in enhancing the human body and mind by genetic and technologically means, but I disagree with tampering with the natural process of evolution. Some propose tampering with the human form to make people better able to work in specific environments, but ethically speaking we would be creating a slave class.


A slave class? It aint necessarily so...

To alter humans so they can "forever" live in empty space (feeding on the Casimir effect) would set them free to leave the solar system and find "work" elsewhere.

But , as I mentioned earlier , the problem of how to survive the death of our universe remains unsolved...

#37 sigurdV

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:06 PM

There is one certainty though, as we move hundreds or even millions of years in the future humans will continue to replace/add our body parts with artificial ones. Anything from a contact lens to a to our heads floating around on a levitating disc.


Nah!

Within the next 200 years or so rich ppl will (like salamanders) be able to grow new bodily parts to replace the old ones (them then being consumed). No operations, no artificial parts.

In the same way the brain will be able to keep alive the same mind "forever".

#38 Eclogite

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 11:01 AM

But , as I mentioned earlier , the problem of how to survive the death of our universe remains unsolved...

Let there be light?

#39 sigurdV

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 07:31 PM

:lol:

Let there be light?

Or Rather: Let this be a joke :lol:

Still: The Mystery of Life and Universe is waiting for explanation/illumination.

PS Cant help suspecting they are connected in a Darwinian way...

You heard about the bees and the flowers huh?
Why couldnt the survivors be like bees searching for a new flower?
Then both life and universe has purpose :rolleyes:
You do have a better conjecture, dont you?

#40 arKane

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:41 AM

I would like to think we could live longer but unless there's quality of life, why would anyone want to? Then there's the idea that we're biologically programmed to die, the ceiling being 120 years:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...er_script.shtml

Other's believe the fountain of youth can be found in a bottle:
http://www.lieberton...9/rej.2010.1085


If anyone can have a longer quality life, will it be available to all or only a selected few? If people want to live longer they will need to have less children, will they be able to accept that? If the average life span of humans increased to 120 years, does anybody know what kind of disruptions that will cause in our society? What kind of trade offs will we have to make to have longer life spans?

#41 arKane

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:00 AM

But , as I mentioned earlier , the problem of how to survive the death of our universe remains unsolved...


Personally I don't mind the dark, but I think we need to get by the next couple of hundred years and then if we don't have nothing really urgent distracting us, maybe we can worry about it then.:)

#42 bravox

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:54 PM

I find those discussions about immmortality humorous. Given human nature, at some point or another every human being will wish to die. You can't avoid it. Even continuous pleasure eventually becomes a bore and a burden.

" The trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed "

You may or may not believe that the trumpet will sound, but it is obvious that you can't live forever if your nature is not changed.

#43 arKane

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:52 PM

I find those discussions about immortality humorous. Given human nature, at some point or another every human being will wish to die. You can't avoid it. Even continuous pleasure eventually becomes a bore and a burden.

" The trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed "

You may or may not believe that the trumpet will sound, but it is obvious that you can't live forever if your nature is not changed.


Unless one has lived a very long time, it's probably pointless to argue the question about eventually wanting to die. But IMO, I think knowing we are mortal with an end in sight makes us try and accomplish things we might otherwise put off if we thought we had an unlimited amount of time. For example, procreating and raising kids before you die. So what do we do if we live twice as long or longer?

#44 bravox

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:27 PM

Unless one has lived a very long time, it's probably pointless to argue the question about eventually wanting to die.

I don't want to live forever, so I'm just sharing my point of view. Maybe I have already lived a very long time?

I have come to understand the problem with this world, and it's a problem that no amount of scientific knowledge can solve. Essentially the problem is that there are problems. When we create temporary solutions to current problems, we create even worse problems for the future. The longer you live, the harder your life becomes.

So no one can be happy in this world. Living forever here would be a curse.

#45 arKane

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:59 PM

I don't want to live forever, so I'm just sharing my point of view. Maybe I have already lived a very long time?


Not to sure I do either, however I don't have a healthy young vigorous body. So my thinking on the subject might be somewhat clouded. (Just saying)

I have come to understand the problem with this world, and it's a problem that no amount of scientific knowledge can solve. Essentially the problem is that there are problems. When we create temporary solutions to current problems, we create even worse problems for the future. The longer you live, the harder your life becomes.


You could have a point here, but dealing with problems is part of being alive. In our society any problems we have are much better than not having those problems and still be living in caves or trees naked and not knowing how to start a fire.

So no one can be happy in this world. Living forever here would be a curse.


Let's rephrase a bit. No one can be happy 100% of the time. I like to balance my happy times with those not so happy times. But when the balance goes to mostly unhappy maybe I'll look forward to an ending.

#46 sigurdV

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:26 PM

Let's rephrase a bit. No one can be happy 100% of the time. I like to balance my happy times with those not so happy times. But when the balance goes to mostly unhappy maybe I'll look forward to an ending.

You can stimulate the pleasure center of the brain, its addictive but it works: your happy all the time...

#47 arKane

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:14 PM

You can stimulate the pleasure center of the brain, its addictive but it works: your happy all the time...


Yes, but those addictive methods tend to be somewhat expensive, and are probably against the law, and will take there own toll on your body to the point where you shorten your life, disrupt your relationships and maybe don't give your kids the best start in life they could have had.

But what about the person that has done everything right, worked hard, raised his family, and then retired and now wants to experience some addictive pleasures before his life ends?

#48 sigurdV

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:10 PM

But what about the person that has done everything right, worked hard, raised his family, and then retired and now wants to experience some addictive pleasures before his life ends?

If life grows exponentially, all available energy will get consumed eventually, and earlier if most people refuse to die;)

#49 Moontanman

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:22 PM

You can stimulate the pleasure center of the brain, its addictive but it works: your happy all the time...



Lets get happy!



#50 CraigD

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:03 AM

As someone who describes himself as a transhumanist/extropian, I’ve neglected this thread! I think what happened is my age-addled mind reclassified it according to its forum and title as a simple Q & A about biological evolution. :doh: Anyhow, late is better than never, and I’m back with multiples of my 2¢.

I find those discussions about immmortality humorous. Given human nature, at some point or another every human being will wish to die. You can't avoid it. Even continuous pleasure eventually becomes a bore and a burden.

Unless one has lived a very long time, it's probably pointless to argue the question about eventually wanting to die.

The idea that “living forever” – a catchy misnomer meaning “living many times longer than usual” – isn’t desired by any or many people has been a perennial one since the mid 1980s. I believe serious conversation became widespread (among young academics and technologists, at least) around the time that a statement in 1981 by astrophysics prodigy Mal Iles,

“I am planning to live forever.
There are people alive today who will never die involuntarily.
The technology to prolong life is on the drawing boards right now. It's maybe 20 years way. But no one is talking about it.”

, which was printed in a newspaper 23 June 1981 (source), became widely known and repeated.
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This quote is often ascribed to Ray Kurzweil, who echoed and continued echo its sentiments, perhaps most obviously and prominently in his 2004 Fantastic Voyage: Live Long Enough to Live Forever). That Iles is nowadays obscure is due in no small part, I think, to his having died suddenly and unexpectedly from an apparent epileptic seizure a few years after he was quoted in the above – a sad irony lost, I think, on no one familiar with this bit of the history of transhumanism.
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The “official transhumanist response” to the assertion that few if any people would want to live much longer than the usual 80 or so years is that the eventual wish to die is not due to boredom, weariness, or ennui, but to depression caused by age-related illness. People don’t get tired of living, they get sick from living, and so tired of being sick that they prefer to die. “Cure ageing” – that is, make age-related illnesses bearable – and the usual human “death wish” will vanish along with them.

To emphasize this idea, tranhumanists often use the neologism “immorbid” (not subject to sickness) in place of “immortal” (not subject to death).

As we’ve not yet “cured ageing”, this idea remains speculation. However, Kurweil and like-minded others have assembled some reasonable statistical analysis and commentary supporting the idea.

Restating: the idea is that the loss of desire to live in old people is not due to boredom and intellectual weariness, but a symptom of psychiatric depression caused by pain and suffering due to illness. The perception of being bored with and weary of life is a symptom, not cause, of this depression.

Consider these quotes from Bravox’s posts in this thread:

I have come to understand the problem with this world, and it's a problem that no amount of scientific knowledge can solve. Essentially the problem is that there are problems. When we create temporary solutions to current problems, we create even worse problems for the future. The longer you live, the harder your life becomes.

So no one can be happy in this world. Living forever here would be a curse.

Now imagine that you are a psychotherapist hearing something like this from a 20 year old.

Along with others, you would almost certainly take these statements as indicators of a diagnosis of clinical depression (a condition involving a distinct, disease-like underlying neuropathology), investigate if your patient is physically ill or experiencing unusual stress (such as trouble in relationships, work, or school), and if indicated, prescribe psychiatric drugs and counseling.

A transhumanist/extropian position, and mine, is that sentiments like “life just gets worse and worse” and “living forever would be a curse” are indicative of depression in either the young or the old. The key difference in these populations is that in the young, illness is a condition to checked for, and if found, treated, in the assumption that it likely can be cured. In the old, illness and its ongoing treatment is assumed, and assumed, correctly at present, to be incurable.

Change that last assumption, and the whole psychological situation is changed.

PS: Does anyone object to my splitting and moving this thread to a more appropriate forum?

#51 arKane

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:15 PM

CraigD

Yes there is a lot to be said for having a young vigorous body. But even that can't do anything about your living condition. Even with a healthy body I wouldn't want to live in poverty forever. However you might say to yourself, if one has forever it's never to late to change your status in life.

But if we are talking about everybody in the world living extended lives, how is that going to change things for everybody? Over population, forced birth control, rationing the food and resources. How rich can a Bill Gates get if he has forever to work at it? Sounds like the world would become like a big poker game, winner take all.