Interpreting Method For The Bible And Some Apocrypha

[JMJones0424]

You claim your interpretation to be the proper one, yet you provide no evidence. What language(s) were the original passages written in? What word(s) were used in the various passages that eventually became translated to the English word "rod"? Who made those translations, and why did they choose "rod" if the meaning was intended to be something else? What was the cultural context in which the various passages were meant to be read when they were originally written? Why is it, in a book that repeatedly calls for stoning, genocide, sacrifice, and other acts that are viewed as horrific today, that the passages couldn't have been meant to literally beat one's children into submission?

 

May I remind you that this is a science forum. In the forum rules, the fifth bullet under "How should I behave" states:

Statements like "I just know that this is the way it is" (especially when religion is being discussed) are considered ignorant and might be deleted. Likewise, users who have an obvious agenda behind the majority of their posts may be banned.

 

Likewise, in a sticky at the top of this forum titled "Rules for the theology forum" the fourth paragraph states:

"This is not the place to discuss Bible verses, nor is it the place to explain why your religion is much better than the alternatives. There are plenty of forums for that on the web already. Please respect our wishes to maintain a forum which first and foremost concerns the scientific aspects of religion, and not the faith aspects of it."

[dduckwessel]

You claim your interpretation to be the proper one, yet you provide no evidence. What language(s) were the original passages written in? What word(s) were used in the various passages that eventually became translated to the English word "rod"? Who made those translations, and why did they choose "rod" if the meaning was intended to be something else? What was the cultural context in which the various passages were meant to be read when they were originally written?

 

What more evidence do you need, it's hard to miss the puzzle-paradigm effect!!

 

It will no doubt be quite a shock for many to learn that Biblical exegesis is not quite as complicated as it has been made out to be. All that hokey-pokey about original passage meanings and translations may sound impressive but it means zip.

 

As you can see the writings are 'self-interpreting' as long as the original symbols/words were translated consistently throughout, which the KJV does very nicely (except for the really tedious old-English).

 

Why is it, in a book that repeatedly calls for stoning, genocide, sacrifice, and other acts that are viewed as horrific today, that the passages couldn't have been meant to literally beat one's children into submission?

 

You're joking right? :blink: Do you really want it to say those things simply so that you can dismiss it? Are you so dogmatic yourself that you are looking at ways to make it conform to 'what you hope it is' rather than 'what it is'!

 

May I remind you that this is a science forum. In the forum rules, the fifth bullet under "How should I behave" states:

Statements like "I just know that this is the way it is" (especially when religion is being discussed) are considered ignorant and might be deleted. Likewise, users who have an obvious agenda behind the majority of their posts may be banned.

 

Are you speaking for the majority on Hypography?

 

My agenda is simply to invite science to take an unbiased look at the puzzle-paradigm. In what way is that not scientific? And in what way does it not make sense? I assumed that people here would be excited to see it! Or perhaps the concensus is that it's not a scientific method but then why was that not debated and proven to be erroneous?

 

Why is it that every new discovery (especially one that invites controversy in scientific circles - as do Bible writings) must always be met with suspicion and derision?

 

Likewise, in a sticky at the top of this forum titled "Rules for the theology forum" the fourth paragraph states:

"This is not the place to discuss Bible verses, nor is it the place to explain why your religion is much better than the alternatives. There are plenty of forums for that on the web already. Please respect our wishes to maintain a forum which first and foremost concerns the scientific aspects of religion, and not the faith aspects of it."

 

If you note, I wasn't discussing anything, I simply presented the unusual effect that I discovered in the writings (including some Apocrypha). And, again, a puzzle-paradigm is scientific.

 

I have no religious agenda as I'm not religiously affiliated in any way. I merely assumed the scientific community (if indeed it is scientific in the true sense of that word) would welcome this information.

 

I would think that a 'theology' forum was for the purpose of presenting such things! Or perhaps you have your own agenda and want to see only that which supports your current thnking? If that's true then I'm disappointed beyond words!

[sigurdV]

What would the collected wisdom, of Copper & Bronze Age society's histories, look like?

~ :o

 

I also want to know what was in the books the christians burned... How much cultural genocide was there? What roots are left for us?

 

ON: the other hand... this topic... quoting texts... ok ...(I dont have to read them do I?)

 

Are there similar puzzling strings in other (Urrrk,bleh... spitting the repulsive quotes on the floor) xamples?

 

One "puzzle" to every "holy" text?

 

(...waiting for "Zen")

[Turtle]

...

Are you speaking for the majority on Hypography?

 

...

I have no religious agenda as I'm not religiously affiliated in any way. I merely assumed the scientific community (if indeed it is scientific in the true sense of that word) would welcome this information.

 

I would think that a 'theology' forum was for the purpose of presenting such things! Or perhaps you have your own agenda and want to see only that which supports your current thnking? If that's true then I'm disappointed beyond words!

 

i'd say that mr. jones is speaking for the majority.

 

since your earliest postings here i have come to consider that perhaps you don't have a religious agenda as you say. benefit of doubt. the problem is that regardless of your intentions bible threads here do regularly draw folks with religious intentions & generate a tumult among the regulars. i had a hand in creating the theology forum as a way to keep things on the scientific track, but it hasn't gone well in my humble opinion. more trouble than worth.

 

i will say on the matter of the rod that i agree with you and in fact somewhere here i posted on it. i noted that homer used the phrase in the odyssey; were you aware of that? i also compared the rod to the tao. that post attracted the attention of exactly one zealot. :doh: what good reason or intention is there to provoke sleeping dogs? :dog:

[CraigD]

I have no religious agenda as I'm not religiously affiliated in any way.

I think you do have a religious agenda, because your attention to the Christian Bible leads me to believe you consider this document to contain hidden messages from a supernatural being, the Christian God.

 

If you did not have a religious agenda, specifically, to show that religious texts contain hidden messages from supernatural beings, you would not be presenting techniques for interpreting a religious text to extract them. If your agenda were not specific to the single family or religions that consider the Bible to be a source of divine truth, I would expect that you would be interested in interpreting the texts of other religions.

 

My agenda is simply to invite science to take an unbiased look at the puzzle-paradigm. In what way is that not scientific? And in what way does it not make sense? I assumed that people here would be excited to see it! Or perhaps the concensus is that it's not a scientific method but then why was that not debated and proven to be erroneous?

...

I merely assumed the scientific community (if indeed it is scientific in the true sense of that word) would welcome this information

Science is never unbiased about what it investigates. Science takes time and resources, so scientists and science enthusiasts focus our attention on subjects we believe will result in valuable contributions to scientific knowledge. Because few scientists or science enthusiasts believe that the Bible contains messages from supernatural beings, few find it worth their while to accept invitations to scientifically investigate such claims, even to “prove such claims to be erroneous.”

 

Computer scientists and mathematicians interested in information theory tend to be interested in claims that seemingly ordinary natural language documents contain more information than they appear to. For example, when Michael Drosnin wrote The Bible Code in 1997, Mathematician Brendan McKay dedicated substantial effort to refuting the claims presented in Drosnin’s book. (for more, see the wikipedia article Bible Code)

[dduckwessel]

i'd say that mr. jones is speaking for the majority.

 

since your earliest postings here i have come to consider that perhaps you don't have a religious agenda as you say. benefit of doubt. the problem is that regardless of your intentions bible threads here do regularly draw folks with religious intentions & generate a tumult among the regulars. i had a hand in creating the theology forum as a way to keep things on the scientific track, but it hasn't gone well in my humble opinion. more trouble than worth.

 

I was merely hoping to present what I had learned for the purpose of scientific study but obviously it provokes too much emotion so I will refrain from such posts. Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

 

I have appreciated everyone's time as I know you are very busy people. I know it hasn't been easy for many of you because of the subject matter.

 

If you think it prudent then perhaps you may want to delete this entire thread. I hope I will be allowed to continue on Hypography as long as I stay away from Bible subjects?

 

 

i will say on the matter of the rod that i agree with you and in fact somewhere here i posted on it. i noted that homer used the phrase in the odyssey; were you aware of that? i also compared the rod to the tao. that post attracted the attention of exactly one zealot. :doh: what good reason or intention is there to provoke sleeping dogs? :dog:

 

I did not read all of homer but I will.

[dduckwessel]

I think you do have a religious agenda, because your attention to the Christian Bible leads me to believe you consider this document to contain hidden messages from a supernatural being, the Christian God.

 

Yes I do see hidden messages...puzzle-paradigm. You see nothing unusual?

 

I would expect that you would be interested in interpreting the texts of other religions.

 

I do read texts of other religions but you have to understand that I have been researching and developing the puzzle-paradigm effect in these writings (and others) for 20 years now (4 hrs or more almost every day).It has taken me this long to compile the information into a readable format (6 books thus far, working on my 7th).

 

If you examine the post I made 2-3 years ago (should you be interested) I believe you will see I've made important strides.

 

For example: many Christians are spanking their kids thinking they're doing them (their kids) a favor (because they think that a rod in the Biblical meaning is a stick) and the kids themselves are getting screwed up and doing the same thing to their children. Don't you think it important for these people to know that the rod is right teaching rather than keep your kids in line with a beating?

 

A psychologist will tell you it's wrong to beat your kids into submission (using different terminology) and you would have no problem with it! I show that the Bible concurs and the same idea is suddenly wrong. It's all semantics.

 

Science is never unbiased about what it investigates.

 

If that's true it's not as it should be, until all the facts are in, benevolent science should remain open.

 

If you were involved in a court case, you would expect that all supporting evidence would be allowed before a judgment was rendered - would you not?

 

Perhaps your problem is that the evidence I've presented is not conclusive enough and therefore, not worth the trouble?

 

Because few scientists or science enthusiasts believe that the Bible contains messages from supernatural beings, few find it worth their while to accept invitations to scientifically investigate such claims, even to “prove such claims to be erroneous.”

 

I'm not asking you to investigate ghosts. I'm asking for an unbiased look at what I believe is something unusual in these writings. I cannot throw away 20 years of tasking interpreting work simply because Hypographers cannot bear to hear the word Bible.

 

Computer scientists and mathematicians interested in information theory tend to be interested in claims that seemingly ordinary natural language documents contain more information than they appear to. For example, when Michael Drosnin wrote The Bible Code in 1997, Mathematician Brendan McKay dedicated substantial effort to refuting the claims presented in Drosnin’s book. (for more, see the wikipedia article Bible Code)

 

I had a feeling that Michael Drosnin would come up...such a ridiculous code...can't even come close to The βεβαιόω Principle.

[dduckwessel]

CraigD,

 

When I began my interpreting work I most certainly had a religious agenda but as I began unravelling the true meanings by the puzzle-paradigm effect - it made me non-religious.

 

It proved to me (as 20 years ago I was very religiously indoctrinated) that this interpreting method leads away from religion and to sanity.

 

I wanted to present the puzzle-paradigm to the most difficult (non-religious and downright oppositional) scientific minds I could find - thus Hypography.

 

My hope is to develop the puzzle-paradigm to such a degree that science has to take a look at it. My agenda...I want to help others away from that insidious trap of religious indoctrination that makes otherwise-intelligent people stupid.

[JMJones0424]

Dduck, my questions were not rhetorical. They are precisely the sort of questions you would need to answer to lend support for your claim that your interpretation of the intended meaning of any passage of any book is the correct interpretation. Without that, all you have is a presentation that makes reasonable sense, in English. Had those passages been written in English within the last couple centuries, then I could be persuaded to agree that your interpretation was self-evident... because I would share the same language culture as the writer. However, without so much as attempting to exhibit the intent of the author, your argument boils down to "I'm right because I say I am."

 

I am curious why you so easily dismiss the necessity to ensure accuracy in translation when you are dealing with the allegorical subtext of words that may or may not be present in the original writings. Without this, all you have presented is a long opinion piece on biblical meaning with nothing to distinguish it from a flooded field, and will likely continue to be met with apathy from those more interested in scientific discussions than unfounded literary criticism.

[dduckwessel]

Dduck, my questions were not rhetorical. They are precisely the sort of questions you would need to answer to lend support for your claim that your interpretation of the intended meaning of any passage of any book is the correct interpretation.

 

Yes, I understand but it's not my interpretation. It's a further interpretation of translation work that was already accomplished ages ago and pretty much agreed upon by both Jewish and Christian scholars. I'm counting on the fact that they did a good job but if they didn't it's the fault of science for not taking it seriously enough! Nevertheless, the puzzle-paradigm would still be there no matter what words you used and translations would not deviate too much as translators knew their business.

 

It's probably a poor example but I'm like the forensic scientist that examines evidence given me by a crime-scene investigator. I didn't do the original investigation (I'm confidant the investigator knows his/her stuff) but using the evidence given me, I found (in my case stumbled upon) what is hidden.

 

Even if the meanings of the words were altered it still would not eradicate the puzzle-paradigm effect, assuming the words are translated consistently throughout. You do not need a computer (much of my interpreting work was done without one) although it's much slower (computers are handy but limited in some respects in this case).

 

If you want to go back to the 'original' translation of words for that we would have to consult an expert (someone who has made it their life's work). Perhaps there is someone on Hypography?

 

Without that, all you have is a presentation that makes reasonable sense, in English. Had those passages been written in English within the last couple centuries, then I could be persuaded to agree that your interpretation was self-evident... because I would share the same language culture as the writer. However, without so much as attempting to exhibit the intent of the author, your argument boils down to "I'm right because I say I am."

 

You will get the same results in any language. The fact is that the puzzle-paradigm is there no matter what words you use.

 

I am curious why you so easily dismiss the necessity to ensure accuracy in translation when you are dealing with the allegorical subtext of words that may or may not be present in the original writings. Without this, all you have presented is a long opinion piece on biblical meaning with nothing to distinguish it from a flooded field, and will likely continue to be met with apathy from those more interested in scientific discussions than unfounded literary criticism.

 

I've been studying this paradigm for a long time and am confidant that when it's all said and done, Bible writings will not be viewed the same way in scientific circles.

 

The difficulty is finding someone who is objective! If you ask a Jewish person, they want Jewish results, or a Catholic will want it to spout Catholic ideas! That's why I turned to science for help (and the fact that the puzzle-paradigm is a scientific principle).

[dduckwessel]

Perhaps I need to clarify that the issue here it not significs nor semantics but rather the puzzle-paradigm itself and how it illuminates the meanings of other like writings.

[Turtle]

...

You will get the same results in any language. The fact is that the puzzle-paradigm is there no matter what words you use.

 

I've been studying this paradigm for a long time and am confidant that when it's all said and done, Bible writings will not be viewed the same way in scientific circles.

...

 

so far your confidence in "our" response has not been rewarded. how long have people been reading the guts of sheep to get at truth? :doh: what is your most confident conclusion as to who invented the puzzle and when, where, and to what purpose?

 

is it not strange that sheep's guts could hail souls out of men's bodies? ~ william shakespeare

[lawcat]

This is clearly not a scientific thread in any ordinary sense, it is basically a study of the biblical message no different than what thousands of preachers do every day. OP is simply preaching on the meaning of the bible and I feel like I am sitting in his church, and that is OK with me, it's posted in the proper rubric. I do not know if it's OK with the mods though.

[dduckwessel]

so far your confidence in "our" response has not been rewarded. how long have people been reading the guts of sheep to get at truth? :doh: what is your most confident conclusion as to who invented the puzzle, when, where, and to what purpose?

 

is it not strange that sheep's guts could hail souls out of men's bodies? ~ william shakespeare

 

How can you compare sheep's guts (hand is quicker than the eye) with a written puzzle!!

 

In answer to your question about my most confident conclusion...what are the odds that people living without the aid of computers could produce such a puzzle? Fact is the Bible is a compilation of many books...ironic how those books (written in different centuries) repeat each other in such an unusual fashion (including the N.T. and Books of Enoch, Eden, Odes of Solomon, and more)!!

[Turtle]

How can you compare sheep's guts (hand is quicker than the eye) with a written puzzle!!

 

In answer to your question about my most confident conclusion...what are the odds that people living without the aid of computers could produce such a puzzle? Fact is the Bible is a compilation of many books...ironic how those books (written in different centuries) repeat each other in such an unusual fashion (including the N.T. and Books of Enoch, Eden, Odes of Solomon, and more)!!

 

i can make the comparison quite handily, as you see i just did. sheep guts is as sheep guts does. you did not answer my question(s). :naughty: who, when, where, and to what purpose?

 

edit: add sheep guts

 

international cognition and culture institute

The pattern of blood vessels on the entrails represents genealogical relationships and blemishes show which of these relationships (with the living or with the dead) need mending

[dduckwessel]

This is clearly not a scientific thread in any ordinary sense, it is basically a study of the biblical message no different than what thousands of preachers do every day. OP is simply preaching on the meaning of the bible and I feel like I am sitting in his church, and that is OK with me, it's posted in the proper rubric. I do not know if it's OK with the mods though.

 

On the contrary it's very different from what preachers are doing every day because it's not an exegetical debate as the puzzle-paradigm eliminates the need for self-interpretation.

 

The puzzle-paradigm further reveals a 'single and singular' author so we should give him a name. I'm thinking Bob might be a good place to start (got the idea from a kids movie, they named their new planet that)! It was Christians that named it the Bible, but other religions call it (or portions thereof) something else. It might help people here on Hypography to see the writings as something other than a religious book!

 

I keep responding because I've not been told to be quiet, as yet, but I'm walking on eggshells.

[dduckwessel]

i can make the comparison quite handily, as you see i just did. sheep guts is as sheep guts does. you did not answer my question(s). :naughty: who, when, where, and to what purpose?

 

I was being evasive, wasn't I? B)

 

The writings themselves say they were inspired by an otherworldy and superior, being. As I have reconstructed the complicated messages (different books written in very different eras), I do not see how individuals without the aid of computers (and even basic study helps) could have written them and maintained the consistency over such long periods of time!

 

oops forgot, when? (when they were written), where? (different locations), what purpose? (to confound people that think they know everything)...just kidding. It appears to me as if the true messages have been hidden - for what purpose I do not as yet understand.