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Can Science And Religion Coexist Peacefully?


kowalskil

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As long as it doesn't include a belief in spirits....

 

I don't see how you can divorce spirits from spirituality! You can't see atoms but you know they exist. Then came photons and quarks and God knows what else. Science just hasn't yet discovered the way to measure the frequencies of spirits but I'm sure science will figure it out.

 

Moderation note: 14 post follow this one were moved from the this thread to Scientific measurement of spirits, because they are a discussion of a related but different question, the existence of spirits.

Edited by CraigD
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Science to me has never been about facts, as it seems to be for many, but about a process for discovery, and a quest for the expansion of knowlege. Faith is belief without proof. Faith is what gives many the ability to get out of bed every day and face the world. As a farmer I use scientiffically derived information on a daily basis to balance the feed ration for the milking cows, to determine how much fetilizer to apply to the fields, and for other things, but it takes faith to do the work day after day with no promise of reward. You can do everything by the numbers and have no guarantee of success.

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Science to me has never been about facts, as it seems to be for many, but about a process for discovery, and a quest for the expansion of knowlege. Faith is belief without proof. Faith is what gives many the ability to get out of bed every day and face the world. As a farmer I use scientiffically derived information on a daily basis to balance the feed ration for the milking cows, to determine how much fetilizer to apply to the fields, and for other things, but it takes faith to do the work day after day with no promise of reward. You can do everything by the numbers and have no guarantee of success.

 

I live in a farming community so I know how hard you people work. However, can you really call what you do faith? I mean, if you didn't have the guarantee that every morning those cows would be there (and produce milk), you probably wouldn't do that kind of work because out of necessity you would be forced to look for other gainful employment.

 

Faith in something that you know works is just common sense.

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Faith can be a real asset to someone facing tough times regardless of their profession. I love all that science has done for my life, things that faith can't accomplish,but i see no need to stop having faith.

 

Just as patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived (or actual) improvement in a medical condition, the sham of Faith can be a real asset to someone facing tough times.

 

Faith, like a placebo, exerts an "expectancy" effect which is believed to have effects.

 

Faith, just as a placebo, can act similarly through classical conditioning, where a belief and an actual stimulus are used simultaneously until the belief is associated with the effect from the actual stimulus.

 

Both conditioning and expectations play a role in faith and make different kinds of contribution.

 

Faith affects the brain and body.

 

But faith can have negative effects too.

 

I think, all in all, science and religion can coexist peacefully, only when faith is viewed as a psychological phenomenon, and explained via the analysis of psychological or behavioral patterns.

 

 

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Faith can be a real asset to someone facing tough times regardless of their profession. I love all that science has done for my life, things that faith can't accomplish,but i see no need to stop having faith.

 

It can also be deadly when someone's faith keeps them from taking action to save them self from imminent danger. When it interferes with nature's survival-of-the-fittest it could be accurately described as a mental disorder.

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I think this thread has become confused with conflation and false dichotomies involving the words faith, science, and religion.

 

The word faith has several common meanings, some naturalistic, some supernatural, some at difficult-to-place points on a continuum between. Conflation can occur when one fails to distinguish these many meaning from one another. For example:

Bob: I have faith that Alice will be back with the truck before 2 o’clock

Carol: Bob has faith, therefore he is religious, and believes in God as described in the Torah.

A false dichotomy can ensue when one assumes science and religion to be opposites. For example:

Alice: I am religious. I accept the truth of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

Bob: Alice is religious, therefore she cannot accept scientific conclusions, only supernaturally revealed truth.

This thread's title, "can science and religion coexist peacefully?" is arguable an example of implied false dichotomy.

 

These and other words have, unfortunately for people who like clear, unambiguous writing, been co-opted by proponents of various religious and political belief systems. A recent example is the phrase “faith-based” to refer to predominantly protestant, often evangelical fundamentalist Christian churches and organizations.

 

I find it interesting that there is one idea domain in addition to religion to which the word faith is assumed to apply: marriage and marriage-like relationships between (usually two) people. For example:

  • “Alice is very full of faith” would usually be taken to mean that Alice is religiously devout.
  • “Bob has never been unfaithful” would usually be take to mean that Bob is married, and since his marriage, has not had sexual intercourse with any woman except his wife.

The essential definition of faith is “trust”. I think that in human culture in general, two of the most, if not the two most, valued kinds of trust are: that of a religious person for vis god or gods; and that of two people in a monogamous relationship for one another.

 

Personal disclosure: I’m a faithful, long (25 year) married atheist who loves science. :)

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I think this thread has become confused with conflation and false dichotomies involving the words faith, science, and religion.

The word faith has several common meanings, some naturalistic, some supernatural

 

 

 

It is interesting that I immediately associated Farming Guy's use of faith as a religious statement whereas, Qfwfq saw it as naturalistic statement.

 

If however, I had used that word 'faith' I think Qfwfq would have jumped all over me!!

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Well, yes, I agree that faith and religion are not the same. Several years ago, my shirt caught on fire wile I was welding. I had worn no protective gear other than the visor because it was to be a quick fix, and I was in a hurry. I would be surprised if any one who feels their flesh burning did not utter the words "Oh God!" at least once. I was severely burned, and needed a trip to the local ER, but I had faith that I would get better with care. I didn't calculate any odds, I just knew I would get through it. Not necessarily a religious belief. I was perscribed pain killers and antibiotic cream. The perscription drug did nothing for the pain but made me feel sick and as if my bed were spinning, so I relied on good old aspirin which did little for the pain, but didn't make me sick, and I consumed two cloves of raw garlick daily with meals. I found meditation helpful for the pain, but there were moments when I found myself praying. I read Stephen Hawkings book and several magazines to pass the hours when I was unable to work. I was able to work after a week, and completely healed in two. Science and religion can coexist within an open mind.

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I was severely burned, and needed a trip to the local ER, but I had faith that I would get better with care.

 

Can I ask how much of your body was burned and if the burns were 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree? The reason I'm asking, and I hope you don't mind, is because if it was severe and over a large area then for you to heal in 2 weeks is quite amazing.

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I agree with Craig, especially concerning the false dichotomy. :agree:

 

It is interesting that I immediately associated Farming Guy's use of faith as a religious statement whereas, Qfwfq saw it as naturalistic statement.

 

If however, I had used that word 'faith' I think Qfwfq would have jumped all over me!!

No, I had perceived it to more likely be meant as faith in the religious sense. The reason I did not "jump all over" him is, actually, for the very reason that he made it quite clearly his personal faith; it did not come across as a statement of some "fact" which is not a supportable claim.

 

If I say which flavours of icecream I prefer, it isn't a claim that I must give support to.

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The essential definition of faith is “trust”. I think that in human culture in general, two of the most, if not the two most, valued kinds of trust are: that of a religious person for vis god or gods; and that of two people in a monogamous relationship for one another.

 

 

If you were around religious circles for very long you would see that trust (in God) often equates to fear = "If I fail to do this, or act badly, God will smite me".

 

A religious family member asked me to pray with him about his business. I asked him if God would not answer his prayer if he prayed alone, and, "What would happen if he didn't pray at all?" He answered that God will answer (he inferred positively) when there's unity in prayer. I asked him what about all the Bible stories where God answered just one man's prayer; Elijah, David, Daniel, etc. but he still insisted the prayer would have greater power when 'two people agree on something'. So I pressed further, "What if you were stranded on an isolated island and had no one to pray with you, what would you do then?"

 

He still insisted there was more power when two prayed together even though in my heart of hearts I thought that fear motivated his prayer. I just thought it was no different from someone invoking a talisman.

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