Jump to content
Science Forums

Should Anal Retentive Behavior be Classified as a Mental Disorder?


7DSUSYstrings

Recommended Posts

I have observed quite a number of ARB types over my life of 56 years and found that mmost of these types have other associated neuroses. We know this is a Freudian concept in its roots, but it's difficult to ignore the types who obsess over tiny details in every aspect of their life. Divorces happen because of this type of behavior as much as with alcoholism and other addictive behavior. I've brought up this question in other forums, but we may have some objective minds in this one.

What seems to be the case is psychiatrists rarely want to assess this behavior as a disorder. I argue that this is probably because many psychiatrists suffer from this behavior and psychiatrists and psychologists are often the deepest cases of denial we can find. I know a couple psychologists that are fairly well adjusted to reality and have the ability to let themselves go a bit. In fact one is a gal who I'd venture to say is mostly a slob at home. On the other hand, there are many I've met briefly who seem to have a place for everything and insist on it being kept that way, never to change that order. The latter seems to be the case in many people and often these same people could be classified as paranoid megalomaniacs.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Dr. C.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have observed quite a number of ARB types over my life of 56 years and found that mmost of these types have other associated neuroses. We know this is a Freudian concept in its roots, but it's difficult to ignore the types who obsess over tiny details in every aspect of their life.

I doubt if “Anal Retentive” will be classified as a mental disorder in any standard manual (DSM-n, etc), because, as you note, the term comes from a very old and largely now discredited model of personality development, Freud’s old psychodynamic one, which focused especially on childhood experiences around toilet training.

 

Many of the traits of the popular use of the AR classification, however, might be diagnosed as a disorder by a modern clinician. The one that comes first to my mind is obsessive–compulsive disorder, a pretty common diagnosis made of about 2.5% of the population, with little distinction between gender, ethnicity, and other demographic factors.

 

As the wikipedia link notes, OCD is a common co-diagnosis with more specific ones, such as various various anxiety disorders.

On the other hand, there are many I've met briefly who seem to have a place for everything and insist on it being kept that way, never to change that order. The latter seems to be the case in many people and often these same people could be classified as paranoid megalomaniacs.

Rather than “paranoid megalomaniac”, (modern diagnosis tends to avoid terms ending in “maniac” :shrug:) some people who might be call AR could be diagnosed with the less common (about 1% of population) obsessive–compulsive personality disorder.

 

The distinction between OCD and OCPD is that people with OCD feel compelled – often with a large component of fear and superstitious dread – to perform repetitive acts, while people with OCPD have a somewhat more abstract fixation on doing things a particular way. People with OCD rarely try to force others to engage in their pathological behavior. People with OCPD may demand that others follow strict rules and schedules, though more commonly will avoid contact with others, because they feel that others cannot adhere to their strict standards. People with OCD are usually pathologically clean (sometimes even to the point of damaging their skin with excessive washing), while people with OCPD may sometimes, according to their rigid personal rules, live in unclean, reclusive conditions.

 

Ruminating on Freudian terms, I’ve long wondered why his anal retentive developmental fixation became so popular in the general lexicon, which its opposite anal expulsive, is much less recognized. For people with AE personality traits, we’re more likely to label them as having “type A personalities”.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Craig,

 

That's very informative. We seems to agree, or at least such is implied, that the proletariat mindset labels OCD as ARB. The AE is, as you stated, less commonly known. I think sometimes people label something inappropriately because they have been subjected to, possibly submitting to, the OCPD types. What you brought out by reference is curiously descriptive of what we often hear described as "Alpha Male" or "Alpha Female."

 

Yes... toilet training and parental demands concerning it. Freud truly isn't that far off in his description. I tend to think that modern psychiatry is not much different that modern physics in that it is like modern comedy. Most comedians derive their material from "an old joke told a different way." The A or B personality is just a different way of describing what Freud called AR or AE. The character types still reflect a person that is preoccupied with themselves (arrogant) or with others (congenial.) Of course there are middle grounds for everything.

 

I tend to believe in giving credit where credit is due. I can imagine a child who was taught to defecate by the parental demand would be molded into this type of personality by age 3, where the child allowed to wear diapers till age 4, and do it when he or she is ready, would be more accepting of mistakes.

 

Good post!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also believe it would be inappropriate to classify ARB or ARPD or ARXYZ as a mental disorder.

 

Take a looke at DSM-4, which categorizes mental disorders. Flip through it. What you will find typically is this:

 

DSRM-4 Code: 4-12345

Name: Anal Retentive Whatever -- ARW

Symptoms: Fixation on details, hyper-focused, etcetera, ...

Tests for: [bLANK]

Cause: [bLANK]

Diagnosis: [bLANK]

Treatment: [bLANK]

Prognosis: [bLANK]

 

Page after page of mental "disorders" that are defined ONLY by a list of vague, fuzzy, symptoms. Many of these symptoms reappear over and over in many, many "disorders". So, each disorder is actually a specific MIX of symptoms that also occur in other disorders. ADHD, ADD, ODD, DPD, ERD, ASPD, ASB, ...

 

Why should Anal Retentive (ARD, ARB, ARPD, etcetera) be a specific disorder? It's vague and fuzzy as hell. What is too much attention to detail? What is too much ability to focus? What is too much capacity to concentrate on one task?

 

You should be asking (IMO) is the condition dysfunctional in the person's everyday environments? But that depends on the environments, doesn't it? ARDs in computer programming careers rake in great gobs of money and are highly respected. Is that dysfunctional? Hell, no! Same goes for document editors and redactors. The medical profession hires 100's of ARDs every year to perform blood and tissue sample analysis, DNA tests, etcetera. Of course, in some professions, having ARD would be the kiss of death. And in some kinds of marriages.

 

I'm easy going, tolerant, forgiving, and I pace myself well. I would be a totally dysfunctional Marine Lieutenant or Football tackle. Should I go to a psychiatrist? Or should I change careers?

 

It's almost impossible to draw a defining line between all these DSM-4 acronymic disorders. Does Joe really have ARB or ARPD? Or maybe it's a combination of OCD and ADHD? Or maybe he's just stressed out because he hasn't been laid in 12 freakin years! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

I'm easy going, tolerant, forgiving, and I pace myself well. I would be a totally dysfunctional Marine Lieutenant or Football tackle. Should I go to a psychiatrist? Or should I change careers?

 

It's almost impossible to draw a defining line between all these DSM-4 acronymic disorders. Does Joe really have ARB or ARPD? Or maybe it's a combination of OCD and ADHD? Or maybe he's just stressed out because he hasn't been laid in 12 freakin years! ;)

 

i'd guess you would be a totally dysfunctional mental health care provider as well. :kuku: your conclusion is a logical fallacy, but i can't tell you which one just now as i am fixated on not crapping my pants. :rotfl:

 

My own stools, Sir, are gigantic and have no more odor than a hot biscuit. :phones:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm easy going, tolerant, forgiving, and I pace myself well. I would be a totally dysfunctional Marine Lieutenant or Football tackle. Should I go to a psychiatrist? Or should I change careers?

 

I'm not certain what you do for a career...

 

I'm pretty well adjusted to life. I take things in stride and make few demands on others except that they return to me that type of respectable behavior. I'm a survivor type and certainly have no NIMBYS. Although I'd be happy to see some of my ideas become wide spread enough to really help the human race and the planet, if that's actually possible any more, I'm just as content knowing that I'll survive as much as a polar shift even if 99.999% of the rest don't. (I'm actually a bit more concerned about that too, considering we've had 5 major earthquakes in the laST 70 DAYS.

 

 

As far as ARBD, AED, OCD, OCPD, ADD, ADHD (and the rest on the good ship Minnow) are concerned I wonder if the latter four and many other mental disorders, including schizophrenia, begin by a person with the complimentary set of genetics being stimulated during the demanding period of development at age 2 to 3. There seems to be a connection between these all. I know schizophrenia can be detected to some degree now through blood tests, but are any of you knowledgeable about any studies done on the genetic sequencing of these?

 

Dr. C.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know much about blood or tissue tests for mental "disorders".

 

What I can tell you is that most of these "disorders" are based upon bad "wiring" in the brain. Even at birth, the human brain is not functionally complete. Neurons continue to grow and extend ganglions for several years after birth. The ends of these ganglions are apparently 'painted' with a chemical that causes the ganglion to be 'attracted' to a specific destination, or at least, in a specific direction toward some 'attractor' within the brain.

 

In this way, pathways are formed between regions of the brain that perform separate functions. For example, the Hippocampus region is responsible for raw emotional reactions. Like the so-called "fight or flight" reflex. However, the frontal lobes of the brain extend ganglions to the Hippocampus. When they finally arrive (at about the age of 3) they allow the frontal lobes to moderate and control (to some extent) the extreme physical reactions to raw emotions that the Hippocampus would otherwise trigger, if left unsupervised.

 

Many young children's brains do not successfully complete these pathways. They grow up hyper-active, or violent, or unable to learn 'right' from 'wrong', or unable to learn that fire burns, or unable to give 'value' to the actions of those around them (anti-social behavior).

 

Why do these pathways not complete? (1) Genetics, of course. (2) Environmental poisons that interfere with this delicate path-building process. (3) Environmental stresses (such as abuse) that flood the brain with pain/stress hormones, which interfere. (4) Physical disease/infections at an early age that interfere. (5) Social environments that are barren, and do not provide the kind of novelty and stimulus that activate the path-building process.

 

(6) Some combination of any of the above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Could AR mean, Anger Retention, or hide a fist in the pocket, because Anger is a sin.

 

Or for example at later stage, a young person were afraid to tell the parents, in a harsh way, to be fed up with them, and other things that don't go well, or aren't clear about sexual life that could be compatible with studies ?(this incompatibility is, I suppose, the common parents' thesis : as soon as a relation appears everything fails at school and job)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could AR mean, Anger Retention, or hide a fist in the pocket, because Anger is a sin....
Hi there.

 

Well, AR could mean anything you want it to mean.

There may be a diagnosis in the medical books for anger retention, but it would probably have a longer name, like Anger Management Disorder, or Rage Outburst Disorder.

 

Anger is not actually a "sin" in any of the religions I know. It's what you DO with the anger that may be a sin. For example, almost all teenagers have trouble with bouts of anger and must hide their fist in the pocket. That's actually pretty normal. But if the teenager loses control and puts their fist in the middle of someone's face, then that may be a serious problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there also Animal Retentive people ? I don't know if it's

people keeping animal in retention.

 

Anyhow all this contains words that will never allow for success, since it's dirt, fatty, gross : majority of cases,

 

Only the purity of blood achieves this : taking and injecting the seeds of life with injection tools (letting blood drops) and birth by cesarian(?) methods.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To come back to the vocabulary, I'm not sure if I can figure out what is meant ? Is it meant people that are retentive during sixty-nine ?

 

----------------------------

 

Can we say that Anger is an upper Wrath outburst that makes an end to a War for example ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's because I don't know proper English.

... May I ask what the difference between those words are ?

Thanks.

A23,

Yes, your English is a little hard to understand. Difficult.

 

Anger is what we call, "being mad" or "getting mad". :offtopic: It usually means that you say harsh words, say insults, say threats, say accusations and speak loudly.

Wrath is used only when the anger leads to violence. Wrath causes fights and murder.

 

"Anal retentive" is a phrase invented a century ago. Literally, it means to refuse to excrete from the anus. To "hold one's ****" and not go to the bathroom. The idea behind it was very different, and was applied to people who focused so hard on one thing, that they could not do anything else. They would read a book and forget to eat and drink.

 

There are no other uses of "retentive" in English. We do not say, "animal retentive". The word "retentive" is not used with sex of any kind. Perhaps it should. :offtopic:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could AR mean, Anger Retention, or hide a fist in the pocket ...

In Freudian psychodynamic, “anger retention” isn’t the sort of phrase one would use to describe an angry person attempting to hide their state from others, as you describe.

 

In Freudian terms, concealing and attempting to stop consciously experiencing, to “hold in” an emotional impulse, anger or any other, is called suppression, so what you’re describing, if it resulted in a mental disorder, would be called “suppressed anger”. The term suppression is less common in Freudian theory than repression. Repression refers to about the same mental process as suppression, except that it is unconscious – the person is unaware they are doing it. Much of Freudian theory assumes that there are many important mental processes similar to conscious thinking, but that occur unconsciously, without a person being aware they are occurring.

... because Anger is a sin.

The term “sin” is used almost exclusively in religion, not in psychology.

 

In Freudian theory, the mental apparatus most associated with ideas such as “anger is a sin” is the super-ego. Though, according to the theory, all people, including mentally healthy ones, have super-egos, the term usually appears in cases where the super-ego is too active, causing mental illness. Anal repulsive people can be assumed to have overly active super-egos.

 

A related Freudian concept is introjection, which means the accepting of conclusions, such as “anger is wrong”, without thinking effectively about it to “integrate” it into one’s mind. Introjected ideas are considered likely to cause mental trouble.

Or for example at later stage, a young person were afraid to tell the parents, in a harsh way, to be fed up with them, and other things that don't go well, or aren't clear about sexual life that could be compatible with studies ?(this incompatibility is, I suppose, the common parents' thesis : as soon as a relation appears everything fails at school and job)

Freudian theory focuses much on sexual life – it’s most basic definition of mental health is “capable of having a healthy sexual relationship with another”. According to Freudian theory, unless one has a well-developed sexual life, one is unlikely to succeed at school or at ones job.

 

Note, importantly, that Freudian theory is now considered not very good or accurate. Its importance is more to the history of psychology and culture, and as the origin of many ideas that were reused in newer psychological theories.

 

I strongly suspect that books by and about Freud and his theories, and general psychology texts including them, have been translated to your primary language, A23, so I believe your best course of action in understanding these ideas and discussions of them is reading such books and/or webpages in your primary language – or, if you read German well, German, as Freud wrote in that language.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's because I don't know proper English.

 

Wrath were a sin, but Anger could even be a gift.

 

May I ask what the difference between those words are ?

Thanks.

 

bullshit. you understand that, don't you? your english is plenty fine when you post on math. when you post on your twisted psycho crap, you all of a suddden don no eet sew gud. :offtopic: :offtopic:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found too 'Anal retentive' : looking at every details, for example if the size of the letters in the writing are the same, but apparently not reading,

and this maybe up to the point that anger sometimes appeared,

 

which is maybe dumb because this kind of reading prob. saved the world from dangerous revolutionnary ideas.

 

and may this involve 'anal inspection' too ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...