Harvesting icebergs

[Donk]

I've been thinking about this link, and it looks like a pretty engineering problem:

Massive iceberg spotted off australia

 

That's a LOT of fresh water there - something like 76 billion cubic metres. Saudi Arabia, to name just one rich dry country, spends something like a billion dollars a year to produce 2 billion cubic meters of desalinated water. They're running out of fossil groundwater, so they want to increase that figure. If we could offer them a 4 billion cubic metre chunk of ice, tasting much better than the stuff they drink now, I reckon they'd pay a billion dollars for it.

 

So, is there any way of getting an iceberg to travel the 10,000 kilometres from Antarctica to Saudi Arabia? B17B took almost ten years to travel less than 2,000 km, but that was just random drift. I'm not suggesting that we can tow something that size, but I reckon there should be some way to "aim" it, and encourage it to travel.

 

For instance, if you carve a pointy bow at one end, waves and currents coming from that direction will have less effect than waves/currents coming the opposite way.

 

How feasible is a long, strong cable? Maybe a succession of seabed anchor-points, with the cable just taut enough to keep the thing travelling? If we can get it into a convenient ocean current, that'll move it pretty well. An average ocean current travels at around 6kph; at an average 2kph our iceberg will get there in well under a year.

 

It's going to lose a lot of mass en route. How much? Too much? Can we reduce the melting by wrapping it? If we vent fresh meltwater at one end, is there a measurable surface tension effect that will help push it along?

[Turtle]

I've been thinking about this link, and it looks like a pretty engineering problem:So, is there any way of getting an iceberg to travel the 10,000 kilometres from Antarctica to Saudi Arabia? B17B took almost ten years to travel less than 2,000 km, but that was just random drift. I'm not suggesting that we can tow something that size, but I reckon there should be some way to "aim" it, and encourage it to travel.

 

For instance, if you carve a pointy bow at one end, waves and currents coming from that direction will have less effect than waves/currents coming the opposite way. ...

 

kites! :idea:oh...and really big electric fans powered by solar panels blowing on them! :D :)

 

source

 

couple o' guys will be along any minute now to put all the mass & velocity stuff on the slide rule for us. :) i better get back to the mopping, speaking of smart guys, clean chalk boards, and it was like that when i got in there. :doh: :cry: :)

[Theory5]

I've been thinking about this link, and it looks like a pretty engineering problem:

Massive iceberg spotted off australia

 

That's a LOT of fresh water there - something like 76 billion cubic metres. Saudi Arabia, to name just one rich dry country, spends something like a billion dollars a year to produce 2 billion cubic meters of desalinated water. They're running out of fossil groundwater, so they want to increase that figure. If we could offer them a 4 billion cubic metre chunk of ice, tasting much better than the stuff they drink now, I reckon they'd pay a billion dollars for it.

 

So, is there any way of getting an iceberg to travel the 10,000 kilometres from Antarctica to Saudi Arabia? B17B took almost ten years to travel less than 2,000 km, but that was just random drift. I'm not suggesting that we can tow something that size, but I reckon there should be some way to "aim" it, and encourage it to travel.

 

For instance, if you carve a pointy bow at one end, waves and currents coming from that direction will have less effect than waves/currents coming the opposite way.

 

How feasible is a long, strong cable? Maybe a succession of seabed anchor-points, with the cable just taut enough to keep the thing travelling? If we can get it into a convenient ocean current, that'll move it pretty well. An average ocean current travels at around 6kph; at an average 2kph our iceberg will get there in well under a year.

 

It's going to lose a lot of mass en route. How much? Too much? Can we reduce the melting by wrapping it? If we vent fresh meltwater at one end, is there a measurable surface tension effect that will help push it along?

I dont think the iceberg would be frozen enough to be able to hold together while being push, pulled, or towed, especiallly in water that is warmer.

 

If we had something big enough to nudge it, it could be steered into a strong current and travel most of the way there easily.

[chilehed]

I'm thinking that the cost to transport a 4 billion metric tonne chunk of ice from the arctic circle and get it into the pipeline in Saudi Arabia will be a lot more than they're currently paying for desalination.

[Donk]

I'm thinking that the cost to transport a 4 billion metric tonne chunk of ice from the arctic circle and get it into the pipeline in Saudi Arabia will be a lot more than they're currently paying for desalination.

It certainly would be if you try to use brute force, simply hooking it up to x number of supertugs and setting them chugging.

 

Remember, though, that the berg that started this thought travelled quite a distance, all by itself and at no cost to anyone. I'm simply thinking of ways in which this natural process could be enhanced. A few simple and not-too-expensive adjustments could make a big difference.

[freeztar]

If you take a look at this photo...

 

 

...it looks like an iceburg bound for Saudi Arabia endures not only a stark contrast in temperature, but also a 'Frogger-style' adventure through oceanic currents.

 

That said (and on to the fun stuff :) ), I like the idea of utilizing the oceanic currents. From the image above, it looks as if the western sides of the three major southern-hemisphere continents would benefit most from an idea of utilizing wayward iceburgs from Antartica. I'm sure Australia wouldn't mind a little clean water in the west.

[chilehed]

It certainly would be if you try to use brute force, simply hooking it up to x number of supertugs and setting them chugging.

 

Remember, though, that the berg that started this thought travelled quite a distance, all by itself and at no cost to anyone. I'm simply thinking of ways in which this natural process could be enhanced. A few simple and not-too-expensive adjustments could make a big difference.

What do you do with the darn thing once you've got it offshore? It's the size of a small mountain. You have to contain it somehow. Do you dredge out a deep spot and wall it in from the surface to the ocean bed; if so, how do you make sure the next one you bring doesn't crash into the earthworks? Or do you wrap a huge bag around it? How do you keep it from drifting off, do you set thousands of anchor points into the bottom?

 

This is extremely expnsive.

[lemit]

I think it might be feasible.

 

I doubt this analogy is apt, but I grew up without electricity and can remember the blocks of river ice we got from an ice house. Even on the Fourth of July, when the ice was under attack by both heat and men with fairly substantial axes who wanted it for ice cream freezers, it seemed to hold up for quite a while. Of course, it wasn't surrounded by water, except in the freezers, where it was surrounded by, uh, water with a lot of salt . . . .

 

Maybe the Saudis are going to make ice cream.

[maikeru]

I think it might be feasible.

 

I doubt this analogy is apt, but I grew up without electricity and can remember the blocks of river ice we got from an ice house. Even on the Fourth of July, when the ice was under attack by both heat and men with fairly substantial axes who wanted it for ice cream freezers, it seemed to hold up for quite a while. Of course, it wasn't surrounded by water, except in the freezers, where it was surrounded by, uh, water with a lot of salt . . . .

 

Maybe the Saudis are going to make ice cream.

 

I imagine Saudi Arabia would be a great market for ice cream.

[Donk]

What do you do with the darn thing once you've got it offshore? It's the size of a small mountain. You have to contain it somehow. Do you dredge out a deep spot and wall it in from the surface to the ocean bed; if so, how do you make sure the next one you bring doesn't crash into the earthworks? Or do you wrap a huge bag around it? How do you keep it from drifting off, do you set thousands of anchor points into the bottom?

 

This is extremely expnsive.

We've already wrapped it to cut down on melting and improve streamlining. The wrap will have a pipe running from inside. During the journey the end of the pipe will be carried high, as with a water bowser. When it gets to journey's end, the berg floats offshore and the pipe is connected to the land. Simple!

 

It isn't going to travel far or fast, unless there are significant offshore currents. Shouldn't be hard to keep it away from those. Or it might be better to build an underwater "harbour" to hold it in place.

[JMJones0424]

Here's the only problem I see-

This method of getting fresh water is either going to be inefficient or inconsistent.

 

Inefficient if conventional shipping techniques are used to move the mass. But this thread doesn't focus on those means, so this problem can be passed over.

 

Inconsistent because there isn't (to my knowledge) a consistent supply of "marketably large" icebergs. So lets assume you use an unconventional transportation method to economically deliver billions of gallons of freshwater at once to a location. Because you can not do this on a regular basis, the infrastructure required to normally supply freshwater there is still needed. So all you are really saving is operating costs for that infrastructure during the time that you use iceberg water instead of freshwater. This makes it nearly impossible to be profitable, unless you can ensure a relatively consistent supply of water to the same location.

 

I think rather than focus on transporting the once in a decade huge icebergs, you'd be better off figuring out a way to gather up and ship the everyday size icebergs and utilize these as a consistent freshwater source.

 

OR, rather than using the freshwater as a normal utility provided resource, instead bottle and ship it as a unique product in its own right for drinking water. The prices the market will bear for this are ridiculous, and then the water could be shipped in smaller amounts and distributed to a wider area, negating the local overload problem discussed previously. I seem to remember the US Navy experimenting with turning icebergs into aircraft carriers during WWII. Instead, turn it into an Evian plant.

[chilehed]

We've already wrapped it to cut down on melting and improve streamlining. The wrap will have a pipe running from inside. During the journey the end of the pipe will be carried high, as with a water bowser. When it gets to journey's end, the berg floats offshore and the pipe is connected to the land. Simple!

 

It isn't going to travel far or fast, unless there are significant offshore currents. Shouldn't be hard to keep it away from those. Or it might be better to build an underwater "harbour" to hold it in place.

A uniformly shaped billion metric ton iceberg would be 100 meters deep and 3162 meters on a side. You're gonna wrap it in place in the open ocean in the Antarctic?? Or else build a harbor??

[Donk]

A uniformly shaped billion metric ton iceberg would be 100 meters deep and 3162 meters on a side. You're gonna wrap it in place in the open ocean in the Antarctic?? Or else build a harbor??

Nah - that would be silly!

 

No need to wrap it until the water starts getting warm. When it does, we do. I can buy a half-metre roll 200m long (=100 sq m) for around ten cents a square metre. I'd guess we could get a reduction for bulk, and wrap it for less than a million bucks.

 

The harbour would be at the destination, to hold it in place while it melts into cool, fresh water.

[chilehed]

Nah - that would be silly!

 

No need to wrap it until the water starts getting warm. When it does, we do. I can buy a half-metre roll 200m long (=100 sq m) for around ten cents a square metre. I'd guess we could get a reduction for bulk, and wrap it for less than a million bucks.

 

The harbour would be at the destination, to hold it in place while it melts into cool, fresh water.

You're not kidding, are you.

 

[Donk]

I'm kidding in that I don't intend to do it myself. I'm willing to bet, though, that somebody is going to make the attempt in the next fifty years - possibly much sooner than that. Call this thread a "thought experiment". Ideas on how it might be done, and the problems they'd encounter. If I'm still around when it happens, I'll be interested to see how close we got.