arthur Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 (Will the decline in Christianity result in the demise of civilisation?) Hi, 60 + years ago I developed the following deceptively simple proposition which I am presenting here in the hope that, on the basis of understanding it, it will receive a just and honest, unbiased and rational consideration as to its merits, primarily, in regards to offering an explanation of the importance of "Christian" related religions to the development of, and to the survival of 'this sophisticated civilised society. *It is not part of a religious debate. It has nothing to do with the veracity of The Bible, of God, of ones religious convictions or of Christianity per se* The basis of the proposition is that this Sophisticated Civilised society exists only because of Roman Catholicism and Christianity and that Roman Catholicism and Christianity permeates, directly or indirectly, virtually every aspect of this Sophisticated Civilised society to the extent that the "religions" and society are so intertwined as to be inseparable. The full understanding of this proposition will give one the key to answering most, if not all, of the philosophical questions of the day. For something like 1500 years Roman Catholicism's domination, control and influence in European centres of power, which came out of the 'unification' of the hundreds of squabbling and fighting principalities, maintained an element of order (believe it or not) in Europe. Over time, the part of Roman Catholicism's doctrine, which included the history of the Jews, namely the Ten Commandments, became incorporated into the Laws of most of the countries of Europe. Partly due to England's break from Rome and in Germany, Martin Luther's Protestantism, and with the gradual sophistication of societies, the basics of the Ten Commandments eventually became an integral element in defining the justice of the Law's of the "Christianised" countries and eventually became the essence of 'The Laws of the land'/s which eventually became accepted by the proletariat, i.e. you and I, as being the norm. It is the laws emanating from Moses stone tablets via the religion of Roman Catholicism and via the tenets of Christianity and the concepts of Protestantism which has influenced you and I to be what we are. It is having grown up in an atmosphere of security and protection of benevolent laws which allows one the freedom to, within the bounds of, for example, decency and morality, to say what we want and to do what we want, it is the universal acceptance of these laws which has influenced us to expect from our neighbours the kind of decent and polite treatment that they would expect from us. It is because we developed and grew up in this environment where the laws, the kind of morality, that have given us our concept of right and wrong, of honesty and dishonesty, etc which has allowed us, that is you and me as well as other people to evolve a psychological dependency on an expectation of us having a future, etcetera, etcetera.I am sure that any reasonably intelligent person could extrapolate for themselves the importance of and the impact that Christianity has had on, directly and indirectly, developing moral or ethical values that they them selves might have. I am also sure that any reasonably intelligent person could not recognise that there is nobody unaffected by the influences of Christianity and its effects. Consider what it is that has held the (westernised) Sophisticated "Christian" Civilised Societies that 'we' are all a part of together. Consider firstly from your own personal perspective the characteristic of you expecting others to adhere to the basic laws and the rules and values which have evolved out of the basic tenets of "Christianity". The laws, rules and taboos which have been the bonding meme of the society of tens of millions of free thinking individuals. The laws and rules that you have never really questioned, the ones that you have absorbed and which have become an integral part of your being, from being that young child and screaming "But that’s not fair" to the maturity of becoming spontaneously distressed by the evil or immoral activity of others who do not respect the same values. Now, and here is the nub, consider that we all, you, me and every person who we know and every person who we have ever known or met and every person who we have ever seen, and, every person who we have ever heard of and every person who lives or has lived in a Sophisticated Civilised Society; AND, Everything that you or I and any of these other people have ever done, thought, wanted or owned as well as every judgement and decision that you, I or they have ever made has been, or is, directly or indirectly influenced by or is the product of the tenets of Christianity and the Judaic ten Commandments irrespective whether you, I or they are conscious of the fact. It is because of these tenets that, Sophisticated Civilised Society exists. It is because of them that you, me and anyone else, whether you or I or they are clever or thick, intellectual or not, has the freedom to pander to their or our expectations of and enjoy the freedom, the security and protection that the society affords, irrespective of any contribution that any of us has made to it. Denouncing the existence of the Christian/Judaic God by people, who claim an intellectual prowess, on the grounds that there is no proof of its existence is pretty bizarre when one considers that the proof of almost anything they claim to believe, unless they are very very old, will only be supported by the equivalent of 'science' journal snippets and hearsay and not by any physical fundamental research by themselves. (This to me begs the question of their intellectuality)Surely I can't be the only one to cringe with embarrassment for them when I do hear or read misguided and false claims and premises which indicate a complete lack of understanding, not only of the history of the religion but more importantly, of its importance and role in the evolution of Mankind including them selves. This also includes the evolution of "science" as a academic discipline, given that for a thousand + years the worlds centres of academia, philosophy, science and record keeping were directly related to religious patronage of religious people in religious schools, colleges and universities. My regards..arthur... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 I disagree absolutely with your contention that the rise of civilization was due to Christianity. Christianity did much to hold back science and civilization in the beginning for more than a thousand years. Morality is not derived from Christianity or religion in general as has been discussed many times in these forums. The general decline in the power of Christianity and religions in general has been accompanied by an increase in both science and civilization. Science contributes much more to civilization than any religion. I see a decline of Christianity, as long as it's accompanied by a similar decline in religions in general, will increase civilization to the betterment of all humans every where. BTW, you have totally violated the premise of your post as stated here *It is not part of a religious debate. It has nothing to do with the veracity of The Bible, of God, of ones religious convictions or of Christianity per se* Your post is nothing but about your religious convictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zythryn Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 The basis of the proposition is that this Sophisticated Civilised society exists only because of Roman Catholicism and Christianity For an unbiased discussion on the merits of your hypothesis, I think you first need to support your original observasion.I believe that statement is false.Certainly Christianity has had great affect upon society. But there are areas which developed laws and technology and other advances without any history of Christianity.As for the source of laws and morals, I believe mine come from the 'golden rule' which came about long before Christianity used it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 China seems to have done quite well in the civilization department without Christianity well before Christianity. I see no basis for your claims but I do see a lot of proselytizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleAl Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 1) Dark Ages - If only the One True Church had devoted a bigger budget and more time to return Christ to Earth.2) Protestant Reformation then the Industrial Revolution, rise of capitalism - No popery!3) Manhattan Project. More than 1/3 of Nobel Laureates since 1900 are Jewish. The Church of Rome is virulently anti-science; brutal, vicious, and lethal; and obscene. The Trinity's dominion is poverty, hunger, disease, filth, death, and silk-clad priests with whips. Test of faith! If you want progress, if you want technological civilization have WASPs mildy oppress secular Jews. Tommy Aquinas proved the existence of god five ways. Baruch Spinoza killed god. Spinoza had a day job grinding lenses. He didn't need to kiss grant funding butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 (Will the decline in Christianity result in the demise of civilisation?) Hi, 60 + years ago I developed the following deceptively simple proposition which I am presenting here in the hope that ... Blah Blah Blah Blah ... My regards..arthur... Good Grief! What a long winded sales pitch on your personal beliefs there. Carl Sagan said it best when he said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." and there's nothing in your extraordinary blathering that supports or proves your extraordinary claims. Maybe you can find someone interested in them here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 So if I read your caveats to Judaism correctly, you're saying that if Christianity went away but we still had Judaism that society would be okay? Cool! If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also way out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmity of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind, :phones:Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Buffy who was responsible for putting my post under 'silly claims' and how can I go about have it moved. All that it needs to show how un-silly the claim is, is for it to be read carefully with out religious prejudice, objectively, and with good will. I have no religious affiliations and I am not a bigot. I am astounded by the amount of religious prejudice and bigotry displayed by people who almost certainly have experienced Christian good will by people who have been influenced by Christianity to become doctors and nurses, aid workers, home and abroad virtually every do good organisations in the 'western world' are run by volunteer Christians, hospitals, clinics, Aid's, drugs, drink, home less-ness, marriage guidance, orphanages, youth centres, sports clubs, hostels for battered wives, wayward children, free food 'kitchens' and family free food distribution centres, the enormous number of educators of children were trained, as were many doctors, social workers in Christian colleges built run and financed by Christian donations and churches it goes on and on and on. If you or anyone is still in doubt just consider the influences that resulted in ethos of the UN and WHO and other global organisations, and if you or any one is still in doubt as to the influences of Christianity consider the influences of Easter and Christmas present production on global fiscal distribution in, for example China and the far east who manufactures more that ¾ the worlds 2007's Christian religious festivals presents.and it goes on and on and on. One does not have to like some thing to recognise its important. All that is needed to understand my proposition is the display of common decency of treating me with, at least, the respect that I expected from this forum as in my request for *just and honest, sensible, unbiased and rational consideration as to its merits.* Not for one moment did I expect a display of stupidity and bigotry and at no point did I expect that it would be put into a 'silly claims forum' by some one who couldn't either be bothered to read or to try to understand what I wrote. *It is not part of a religious debate. It has nothing to do with the veracity of The Bible, of God, of ones religious convictions or of Christianity per se* ..arthur.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 For an unbiased discussion on the merits of your hypothesis, I think you first need to support your original observasion.I believe that statement is false.Certainly Christianity has had great affect upon society. But there are areas which developed laws and technology and other advances without any history of Christianity.As for the source of laws and morals, I believe mine come from the 'golden rule' which came about long before Christianity used it. what statement??? ..arthur.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 So if I read your caveats to Judaism correctly, you're saying that if Christianity went away but we still had Judaism that society would be okay? where are the caveats???? ...arthur... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 1) Dark Ages - If only the One True Church had devoted a bigger budget and more time to return Christ to Earth.2) Protestant Reformation then the Industrial Revolution, rise of capitalism - No popery!3) Manhattan Project. More than 1/3 of Nobel Laureates since 1900 are Jewish. The Church of Rome is virulently anti-science; brutal, vicious, and lethal; and obscene. The Trinity's dominion is poverty, hunger, disease, filth, death, and silk-clad priests with whips. Test of faith! If you want progress, if you want technological civilization have WASPs mildy oppress secular Jews. Tommy Aquinas proved the existence of god five ways. Baruch Spinoza killed god. Spinoza had a day job grinding lenses. He didn't need to kiss grant funding butt. supposing that all of that is true, what has it to do with my proposition??? ..arthur.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zythryn Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Arthur, if you are looking to objectively review your proposition, why did you not respond to my post (http://hypography.com/forums/silly-claims-forum/20988-will-decline-christianity-result-demise-civilisation.html#post280358)?The very basis of your position seems faulty. Would you like to discuss that point, or were you not interested in debate or discussion.And if you are not interested in talking about your proposition, why post and ask for objective discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 what statement??? ..arthur.. THIS STATEMENT ARTHUR! the basis of the proposition is that this sophisticated civilised society exists only because of roman catholicism and christianity and that roman catholicism and christianity permeates, directly or indirectly, virtually every aspect of this sophisticated civilised society to the extent that the "religions" and society are so intertwined as to be inseparable. You need to support it, I have already given an example of a civilization not influenced by Christianity. Not to mention the way that Christianity suppressed both morals and science for many centuries and suppressed any real civilization. Your contention is totally unsupportable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 supposing that all of that is true, what has it to do with my proposition??? ..arthur.. If you can't see that then you obviously have a problem seeing past your own beliefs. Your church of Rome not only suppressed civilization it suppressed morals by supporting the virtual slavery of the entire population of Europe and then shifted that to the New world by destroying all evidence of other religions and other civilizations. We have only in the past few hundred years began to rise up out of the fog created by Christianity to see the real world and start to really become civilized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanctus Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 what statement??? ..arthur.. As an admin:Please refrain from writing big, it looks like you are really upset about it while I think you really just want to ask which statement. Maybe, to make it clearer, writing in big (or also all in capital letters) on these forums is seen as equivalent to yelling... Ok, now as a normal member and not an admin:he means the statement he quoted of you and requoted by moon... It is a statement because you say even stronger later on:It is because of these tenets that, Sophisticated Civilised Society exists. This is where it seems to me already most of us don't agree with you, I at least don't at all. It is (as already Zythrin said I think) not the same to say that "Sophisticated Civilised Society exists because of the historical roots in the Christianity" and "our society has been influenced from Christianity". The former (which you say) implies that a society which has not had a christian past like our will never be civilised and sophisticated. The latter is just a statement of facts, that the present times are influenced from the past.I think you agree that this is a huge difference. If you really want to say the former, then you have to try to bring forward facts/evidence/arguments/etc. that this is the only way. Good luck in that case ;-), but I would look forward how you try to support it in case it is what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur Posted October 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 If you can't see that then you obviously have a problem seeing past your own beliefs. Your church of Rome not only suppressed civilization it suppressed morals by supporting the virtual slavery of the entire population of Europe and then shifted that to the New world by destroying all evidence of other religions and other civilizations. We have only in the past few hundred years began to rise up out of the fog created by Christianity to see the real world and start to really become civilized. May be that is all true, but still, what does it have to do with my proposition?? I have just received an e-mail from a friend in Atlanta GA, Quote: "Have just received a transcript from police dept saying if it wasn’t for the night shelters, rehabs etc, they could not maintain order, more later. rick." when I receive more I might post it. The following is a post from else where which I think 'might' help you understand the proposition. And even understand why it is amongst the silly claim forum. I have no religious affiliations and I am astounded by the amount of religious prejudice and bigotry displayed by people who almost certainly have experienced, directly or indirectly, Christian good will by people who either are Christian or have been influenced by Christianity to become doctors and nurses, aid workers, home and abroad. Virtually every do good organisations in the 'western world' are run by volunteer Christians, hospitals, clinics, Aid's, drugs, drink, homelessness, marriage guidance, centres. Orphanages, youth centres, sports clubs, hostels for battered wives, wayward children, free food 'kitchens' and family free food distribution centres, the enormous number of educators of children were trained, as were many doctors, social workers in Christian colleges built run and financed by Christian donations and churches it goes on and on and on. If anyone is still in doubt they should just consider the influences that resulted in the ethos of the UN and WHO and other global organisations, including organisations for human rights and 'Save the Children'. And if any one is still in doubt as to the influences of Christianity consider the influences of Easter and Christmas present production on global fiscal distribution in, for example China and the far east who manufactured more that ¾ the worlds 2007's Christian religious festival presents. and consider the subsequent industrial development, and then consider how many, for example, Chinese citizens have been affected indirectly by the effects of Christianity and it goes on and on and on. As you know one does not have to like some thing to recognise its important. All that is needed to understand my proposition is the display of common decency of treating me with, at least, the respect that I expected from this forum as in my request for *just and honest, sensible, unbiased and rational consideration as to its merits.* Not for one moment did I expect the displays of silliness and bigotry shown by people who couldn't either be bothered to read or to try to understand what I wrote. And I didn't expect so many "experts" on a subject that they had never formerly considered. So should they now consider whether children should be encouraged to learn the truth and not that religious clap trap and learn that to keep their civilisation together understand that all they are are just self programming independent biological machines, and that they have no inherent purpose for existing? Should they be given to understand the "scientific" reality is that any roles or aspirations, that any rhyme or reason for their being here will have to be psychologically contrived in the future? Should they be given to understand they are only an assembly of lifeless chemicals which as the result of a few spontaneous electro-chemical reactions develop in them a delusion of 'self'? AND, Should children be encouraged to understand that the way to maintain their delusion of self should be no more that the pursuit of anything, using any expedience what so ever, that might appease the biological stresses which are caused by the spontaneous effects of particular chemicals in them responding to environmental influences thereby promoting activity for self gratification at any expense as the Dawkinites, his acolytes and disciples overtly encourage, and, as a great many other, supposedly intelligent, people who through ignorance or lack of concern inadvertently encourage? Then having so educated the children should we, that is you and I, who have this decency and morality thing as an integral aspect of our being (intellectually??) question, why 'they' act as they do? I will also add a list of a few of the scientists who had religious convictions and who's work has had an influence on you, in case you jump onto the suppression of science tack in your attempt to avoid giving me a just and honest, sensible, unbiased and rational consideration as to its merits, primarily, in regards to offering an explanation of the importance of "Christian" (note the "") related religions to the development of, and to the survival of 'this sophisticated civilised society and not to your own propositions. Some Famous Scientists who were Christians John Philoponus late 6th Century Aristotle's early Christian critic Hugh of St. Victor c. 1096-1141 theologian of science Robert Grosseteste c. 1168-1253 reform-minded bishop-scientist Roger Bacon c. 1220-1292 Doctor Mirabiles Dietrich von Frieberg c. 1250-c. 1310 the priest who solved the mystery of the rainbow Thomas Bradwardine c. 1290-1349 student of motion Nicole Oresme c. 1320-1382 inventor of scientific graphic techniques Nicholas of Cusa 1401-1464 grappler with infinity Georgias Agricola 1495-1555 founder of metallurgy Johannes Kepler 1571-1630 discoverer of the laws of planetary motion Johannes Baptista van Helmont 1579-1644 founder of pneumatic chemistry and chemical physiology Francesco Maria Grimaldi 1618-1663 discoverer of the diffraction of light Catholic Blaise Pascal 1623-1662 mathematical prodigy and universal genius Robert Boyle 1627-1691 founder of modern chemistry John Ray 1627-1705 cataloger of British flora and fauna Calvinist (denomination?) Isaac Barrow 1630-1677 Newton's teacher Antonie van Leeuwenhoek 1632-1723 discoverer of bacteria nnNiels Seno 1638-1686 founder of geology dJames Bradley 1693-1762 discoverer of the aberration of starlight Ewald Georg von Kleist c. 1700-1748 inventor of the Leyden jar Carolus Linnaeus 1707-1778 classifer of all living things Leonhard Euler 1707-1783 the prolific mathematician John Dalton 1766-1844 founder of modern atomic theory Thomas Young 1773-1829 first to conduct a double-slit experiment with light David Brewster 1781-1868 researcher of polarized light William Buckland 1784-1856 geologist of the Noahic flood Adem Sedgwick 1785-1873 geologist of the Cambrian Augustin-Jean Fresnel 1788-1827 the physicist of light waves Augustin Louis Cauchy 1789-1857 soulwinning mathematician Michael Faraday 1791-1867 giant of electrical research John Frederick William Herschel 1792-1871 cataloger of the Southern skies Matthew Fontaine Maury 1806-1873 pathfinder of the seas Philip Henry Gosse 1810-1888 popular naturalist Asa Gray 1810-1888 influential botanist James Dwight Dana 1813-1895 systematizer of minerology George Boole 1815-1864 discoverer of pure mathematics James Prescott Joule 1818-1889 originator of Joule's Law John Couch Adams 1819-1892 codiscoverer of Neptune George Gabriel Stokes 1819-1903 theorist of fluorescence Gregor Mendel 1822-1884 pioneer in genetics William Thomson, Lord Kelvin 1824-1907 physicist of thermodynammics Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann 1829-1907 the non-Euclidean geometer behind relativity theory James Clerk Maxwell 1831-1879 father of modern physics Edward William Morley 1838-1923 Michelson's partner in measuring the speed of light Pierre-Maurice-Marie Duhem 1861-1923 the physicist who recovered the science of the Middle Ages Georges Lemaitre 1894-1966 the prist who showed us the universe is expanding George Washington Carver c. 1864-1943 pioneer in chemurgy Arthur Stanley Eddington 1882-1944 the astronomer who ruled stellar theory Looking forward to your unbiased and sensible comments.with regards..arthur.. 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sanctus Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 And i am waiting for a reply of yours to my post ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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