Moontanman Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Golly geee larv, you should wear a shirt that says "Do not defend me from a criminal I would rather die" Yes, you have hit a nerve. All us gun tote'en rednecks just live for the day we can shoot it out with a criminal. I shouldn't have tried to hide it from your rapier whit and big time fancy school learnin's. You just saw right through my dim witted shallow ways. i'll be more carefuller next time Mr. larv sir..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larv Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 All us gun tote'en rednecks just live for the day we can shoot it out with a criminal.That's assuming your pistola is not already stolen out of the glovebox of your pickup truck. Criminals have a way of doing that, ya know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigD Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Moderatorly note to all: this isn’t an opinion and debate forum, but a science one. Even in the “softer” disciplines like anthropology, we’re expected to put effort into supporting our claims with objectively verifiable data, not just our opinions, no matter how strongly we hold them of believe in the strength of their logic. I’ve seen, and seen posted at hypography, good-quality data supporting Moontan’s position that people with handgun carrying licenses commit (and are charged with) dramatically fewer crimes per capita than their community populations as a whole, and encourage him to dig up these statistics. They demonstrate, compellingly I think, that concerns such as Larv’s that very law-abiding citizens carrying guns is a great threat to public safety are not suggested by scientific data. That they suggest, as many proponents of gun-carrying assert, that more ordinary citizens carrying guns significantly counter threats to public safety, or affects the likelihood of a particular citizen committing a crime, is IMHO, unproven. A good argument can be made, I think, that people who are so law-abiding that they seek to get a permit to carry a gun (vs. people who carry them without a permit) are much less likely to commit any crime, whether such permits are available, and they carry concealed guns, or not. I’m personally interested in – and will thus search for data and analysis concerning – the percentage of people who carry concealed guns without permits. My personal experience has been that the percentage is high, especially in rural areas, especially when people who carry unloaded guns and ammunition in their vehicles, loading and carrying them only in situations they feel warrant it, are included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larv Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Three questions for those who don't trust gun toters: 1. Does this make you feel any safer? YouTube - Hoffners Concealed Carry Neck ID Holder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_0RyNb57DQ 2. Who doesn't want to be James Bond, anyway? 3. Would you support ammunition accountability legislation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Three questions for those who don't trust gun toters: 1. Does this make you feel any safer? YouTube - Hoffners Concealed Carry Neck ID Holder I can't watch U-Tube videos so I have no idea what this is, please summarize it for me. 2. Who doesn't want to be James Bond, anyway? Movies larv, please do us all a favor and stick to reality. Real life cannot be judged from movies. 3. Would you support ammunition accountability legislation? If I read this correctly I would have no problem with ammunition being coded to show where it came from. I doubt it will be as effective as some obviously think but like gun registration and serial numbers i see no problem with this. Of course some provision would have to made for the fact that ammunition is not as controllable as a gun and that your ammunition could easily be mixed up with mine at the range, or under many other circumstances. Expecting everyone to keep track of every bullet is asking quite a bit too much in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 BTW larv, lets dispense with the cracks about rednecks and movies. If you want to exchange insults and smart *** remarks i can keep up with the best of them but lets move it to jokes and humor instead of a serious thread like this one. No matter what you think about concealed carry laws and the people who have the permits the reality of the situation is that 39 states allow concealed carry to some extent or another. Some are far more liberal than i am comfortable with others so restrictive the permit comes close to being worthless. If you want to debate the merits of concealed carry a new thread needs to be started. This one is about carrying a concealed weapon into a restaurant or bar. We have to assume the person with the gun is as proficient with a gun as is required by that state. I think it is totally wrong to assume the person with a concealed carry permit is somehow mentally flawed or a stupid redneck or a James Bond wannabe or any other labels you want to apply. i say no law is needed but the owner of the establishment should be able to bar guns from his or her place. Personally a restaurant is fine with me, a bar is a little more iffy. I almost never go to bars to start with so maybe i am not fully schooled on bars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larv Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I can't watch U-Tube videos so I have no idea what this is, please summarize it for me.Moontan, if hi-speed Internet is available in your area you should get it just to watch YouTube. It’s an absolute hoot. But the video I posted was not that special—just a guy who wears a conceal-carry badge around his neck, with James Bond music playing in the background. BTW larv, lets dispense with the cracks about rednecks and movies. If you want to exchange insults and smart *** remarks i can keep up with the best of them but lets move it to jokes and humor instead of a serious thread like this one.You right. I’ll try to control my inner Mencken. Sorry. If you want to debate the merits of concealed carry a new thread needs to be started. This one is about carrying a concealed weapon into a restaurant or bar. We have to assume the person with the gun is as proficient with a gun as is required by that state.Respectfully, I cannot make that assumption. I don’t trust people who go out to bars and restaurants carrying guns. It’s that simple. I don’t feel any safer with them around; indeed, I feel more threatened. They seem to be too insecure to me. Besides, what’s to keep a criminal from beating up a legal carrier and taking his gun? I think it is totally wrong to assume the person with a concealed carry permit is somehow mentally flawed or a stupid redneck or a James Bond wannabe or any other labels you want to apply. i say no law is needed but the owner of the establishment should be able to bar guns from his or her place. Personally a restaurant is fine with me, a bar is a little more iffy. I almost never go to bars to start with so maybe i am not fully schooled on bars. My biggest struggle with hand guns in public places is concerned with “the gun mentality.” We Americans interpret the Constitution in different ways. Personally, I don’t think the Second Amendment guarantees any right to “keep and bears Arms” in bars or restaurants. Here’s the whole of Amendment II: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. This Amendment is fundamentally concerned with keeping and bearing arms as necessary to maintain a well-regulated militia. And it speaks to the needs of a frontier society, one that was agitating rebellion against the King of England. America needs to move on past all of this Wild-West self righteousness over handguns. Someday we will. Moontan, the fact that you keep a handgun in the glove compartment of your pickup truck troubles me. How can you call yourself a responsible gun owner when you do something foolish like that? Yours is NOT a secured weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Moontan, if hi-speed Internet is available in your area you should get it just to watch YouTube. It’s an absolute hoot. But the video I posted was not that special—just a guy who wears a conceal-carry badge around his neck, with James Bond music playing in the background. If i could afford it I would. Respectfully, I cannot make that assumption. I don’t trust people who go out to bars and restaurants carrying guns. It’s that simple. I don’t feel any safer with them around; indeed, I feel more threatened. They seem to be too insecure to me. Besides, what’s to keep a criminal from beating up a legal carrier and taking his gun? I would wonder about someone who specifically took his gun because he was going to a bar instead of a person who always keeps his gun with him. i see no problem with a restaurant. I would imagien the gun should keep a person from taking my gun from me. Why does an honest person bother you but a criminal doesn't? Larv exactly what do you think it takes to get a concealed carry permit? My biggest struggle with hand guns in public places is concerned with “the gun mentality.” We Americans interpret the Constitution in different ways. Personally, I don’t think the Second Amendment guarantees any right to “keep and bears Arms” in bars or restaurants. Here’s the whole of Amendment II: I know what it says, I have no problem with guns, I've used them most of my life. I see no reason to be suspicious of a gun owner. It's criminals with guns that bother me, not honest citizens. Moontan, the fact that you keep a handgun in the glove compartment of your pickup truck troubles me. How can you call yourself a responsible gun owner when you do something foolish like that? Yours is NOT a secured weapon. First of all I don't drive a pickup truck, second how can a gun in a locked glove box inside of a locked truck not be secure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Places to look for information about concealed carry laws. Gun Control Concealed Carry Statistics Statistics don't support scary stories about concealed-carry NRA-ILA :: Right-to-Carry 2009 College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader - News Story - WSB Atlanta TFS Magnum: Texas' Concealed Handgun Law - 10 Years Later TFS Magnum: Summary of the British Experience with Gun Control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larv Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 I would wonder about someone who specifically took his gun because he was going to a bar instead of a person who always keeps his gun with him. i see no problem with a restaurant. I would imagien the gun should keep a person from taking my gun from me. Why does an honest person bother you but a criminal doesn't? Larv exactly what do you think it takes to get a concealed carry permit?A gun mentality and twenty-five bucks? I know what it says, I have no problem with guns, I've used them most of my life. I see no reason to be suspicious of a gun owner. It's criminals with guns that bother me, not honest citizens.Well, I suppose you could always shoot them first and sort them out later. First of all I don't drive a pickup truck, second how can a gun in a locked glove box inside of a locked truck not be secure?Let me take a crack at this. If I were a gun-seeking criminal in a parking lot I would specialize in the glove compartments of trucks. I don't even know anything about busting into trucks, but I am sure that a crowbar will do nicely for prying open your door, as well as your glove compartment. You might want to check out the laws that define exactly what it means to have a "secured weapon" in your state. Moontan, please explain to me how anyone taking a gun into a bar or restaurant is any part of a “well regulated Militia,” per Amendment II. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southtown Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Three questions for those who don't trust gun toters:Did you mean 'those who do trust gun toters?' 1. Does this make you feel any safer?Advertisement for a conceal license display necklace? I don't see the point. 2. Who doesn't want to be James Bond, anyway?Screw that. Too much work. 3. Would you support ammunition accountability legislation?Nope, sounds ineffective and too expensive to implement. Besides, what’s to keep a criminal from beating up a legal carrier and taking his gun?The firearm, or more specifically, the bullet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 A gun mentality and twenty-five bucks? Ah larv I thought you were going to stop with the smart *** remarks? Step 1 Locate a concealed carry course. You will need to have proof of completion of a concealed carry course in the state of North Carolina in order to apply for a permit. Contact local shooting ranges or the NC Department of Justice for certified instructors and class availability. (cost of this varies) Step 2 Apply in person at the Sheriff's office. Applications for concealed carry permits and pistol purchase permits are available at your county's Sheriff's permit office. Bring your concealed carry class certificate and NC driver's license to the permit office. Step 3 Swear under oath in the presence of witnesses that the information provided on your application is accurate. Sign the medical records waver and allow your fingerprints to be taken. Step 4 Pay the non-refundable license fee and the fee for fingerprinting. ($90) Step 5 Return to the Sheriff's permit office to pick up your concealed carry permit. The permit office has 90 days to review your application. You will receive a phone call when your application is accepted. If your application is turned down, you will receive a written explanation by mail. Step 6 Renew your concealed carry permit every five years.Well, I suppose you could always shoot them first and sort them out later. Typcial of those who's knowlege of guns is limited to the movies. Let me take a crack at this. If I were a gun-seeking criminal in a parking lot I would specialize in the glove compartments of trucks. I don't even know anything about busting into trucks, but I am sure that a crowbar will do nicely for prying open your door, as well as your glove compartment. You might want to check out the laws that define exactly what it means to have a "secured weapon" in your state. Since the number of people with permits is low the chances of targeting the correct car is not something I would count on to obtain a gun. Most cars have alarms, and breaking into a car would bring the police the chance of success is quite low. On top of that I would not leave my gun in my Jeep Cherokee for long periods time and then only in a public area where breaking into it would be seen by others and attract attention. Moontan, please explain to me how anyone taking a gun into a bar or restaurant is any part of a “well regulated Militia,” per Amendment II. I won't lie, my working knowledge of the legal aspects of why i can carry or own a gun is limited. All i know for sure is my side has won the debate and I get to own guns because of it. ( I am also quite glad it worked out that way!) In NC simply drinking alcohol while you have a gun in your possession is enough cause to have your permit revoked. I would like to ask why a restaurant is a bad place to carry a gun? People loose their minds when they eat steak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted September 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Larv, can you provide any reasons guns should not be carried by licensed individual other than your personal dislike of guns? Any statistics, links, anything at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southtown Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 We Americans interpret the Constitution in different ways. Personally, I don’t think the Second Amendment guarantees any right to “keep and bears Arms” in bars or restaurants. Here’s the whole of Amendment II: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. This Amendment is fundamentally concerned with keeping and bearing arms as necessary to maintain a well-regulated militia. And it speaks to the needs of a frontier society, one that was agitating rebellion against the King of England.The first part of the amendment is a dependent clause, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" and is only meant to support the actual statement in the second part "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." America needs to move on past all of this Wild-West self righteousness over handguns. Someday we will.I live 10 miles outside of a town with a population around 25k. Last year, my childrens' school had a vagrant (apparently mentally unstable) show up, get hostile with the principle, and refuse to leave. The cops arrived 45 minutes after the 911 call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larv Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 The first part of the amendment is a dependent clause, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" and is only meant to support the actual statement in the second part "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."Exactly! And how many conceal-carry permit holders do you suppose are members of "a well regulated Militia"? I live 10 miles outside of a town with a population around 25k. Last year, my childrens' school had a vagrant (apparently mentally unstable) show up, get hostile with the principle, and refuse to leave. The cops arrived 45 minutes after the 911 call....and I suppose that those armed citizens in some nearby bar or restaurant should have rushed right over to shoot the vagrant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larv Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Larv, can you provide any reasons guns should not be carried by licensed individual other than your personal dislike of guns? Any statistics, links, anything at all?Just try googling "accidental shooting" and you'll have more links than you care to examine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southtown Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Exactly! And how many conceal-carry permit holders do you suppose are members of "a well regulated Militia"?Not enough. Why? ...and I suppose that those armed citizens in some nearby bar or restaurant should have rushed right over to shoot the vagrant?'Shoot' him? Why would you suppose that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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