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Carrying a concealed weapon into a restaurant or bar


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Poll: Should you be able to carry a concealed weapon into a restaurant or bar (1 member(s) have cast votes)

Should you be able to carry a concealed weapon into a restaurant or bar

  1. Yes (6 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  2. No (6 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

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#35 Moontanman

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:28 PM

Moontanman, doesn't it bother you just a little bit to see all those nimrods, nitwits, nabobs, nincompoops who are carrying around heat, especially in bars and restaurants? Sure, you and BigDogBill's parents are decent people who'd never do a bad thing with a gun. But I don't see how arming you in a bar or a restaurant will do anything but put more stray bullets in the air that I'll have to duck when the shooting starts up.


Larv I know many people who are licensed to carry a concealed fire arm, none of them fit your labels. Almost to a person the men and women who manage to get those permits are good human beings who genuinely want to help other people. Not a bunch of gun fighters looking for an excuse to open fire. I think you are being intentionally insulting and owe humanity an apology for breathing.....

One universal constant: weapons beget more weapons; violence begets more violence.


Yeah, I know what you mean, it's best just to bend over and take it, no sense in putting off the inevitable. All wars and human suffering would stop if we all just allowed the bad guys to kill us so we wouldn't be in the way anymore. Standing up for what's right will never make a difference, make sure you leave your doors unlocked so the criminals won't be inconvenienced by the time it takes to break down your doors. Yeah , that's the ticket......

#36 Buffy

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 09:34 PM

It would be nice if everyone who had a permit were as nice as the folks I know who do.

Unfortunately, the controls are because of folks like this:


Posted Image
Posted Image

(h/t TalkingPointsMemo.com)


Wielding a gun in a situation like a bar or restaurant is probably not going to "make it better": Last year a bunch of restaurant robberies took place in Oakland with several very well armed thieves barging into full restaurants waving automatic weapons. While California makes it very hard to get concealed carry permits, this is Oaktown, where even in a fancy restaurant, you can't be sure that there won't be similarly well-armed gang members (drug gangs in Oakland make the Mafia in New Jersey look like a ladies church group), so the usual arguments that they "could be sure they were not going to be challenged by others with guns" really goes out the window (and explains why they felt the need in several of these robberies to pack Mac-10s!).

In fact, in spite of this wave of crimes, not one shot was fired and not one person was hurt, because everyone did what the police and crime experts advise: cooperate and give them whatever they ask for.

No, it's not "fair", but quite frankly, everyone lived, and most everyone who carried out the crimes is now in prison.

I'm not really against concealed carry laws, but I just think you need to be required to go through as much scrutiny as you would for a top level security clearance to get one, because quite frankly, most folks given a gun are going to do something really stupid either through lack of experience or testosterone poisoning.

Like torture, the fictional mystique of carrying a gun doesn't quite measure up to reality.

When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns, ;)
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#37 Moontanman

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 08:51 AM

It would be nice if everyone who had a permit were as nice as the folks I know who do.

Unfortunately, the controls are because of folks like this:


Posted Image
Posted Image

(h/t TalkingPointsMemo.com)


I'm not sure these people have anything to do with concealed carry.


Wielding a gun in a situation like a bar or restaurant is probably not going to "make it better": Last year a bunch of restaurant robberies took place in Oakland with several very well armed thieves barging into full restaurants waving automatic weapons. While California makes it very hard to get concealed carry permits, this is Oaktown, where even in a fancy restaurant, you can't be sure that there won't be similarly well-armed gang members (drug gangs in Oakland make the Mafia in New Jersey look like a ladies church group), so the usual arguments that they "could be sure they were not going to be challenged by others with guns" really goes out the window (and explains why they felt the need in several of these robberies to pack Mac-10s!).

In fact, in spite of this wave of crimes, not one shot was fired and not one person was hurt, because everyone did what the police and crime experts advise: cooperate and give them whatever they ask for.

No, it's not "fair", but quite frankly, everyone lived, and most everyone who carried out the crimes is now in prison.


Coming from a state where a permit is very difficult to get for anyone and the fact all these guns were either illegal or hypothetical I see no connection with concealed carry laws either.

I'm not really against concealed carry laws, but I just think you need to be required to go through as much scrutiny as you would for a top level security clearance to get one, because quite frankly, most folks given a gun are going to do something really stupid either through lack of experience or testosterone poisoning.


I very much disagree with this, in my state at least you do not see testosterone fueled gun battles going on. Even thought hundreds of people in my county have gun permits there has never been a case of a gun being pulled for any reason other than life or death. No pistol waving drunks or testosterone crazed individuals.

#38 Buffy

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 05:45 PM

I'm not sure these people have anything to do with concealed carry.

It's simply evidence that in many states it's easy for psychologically unbalanced people to easily obtain them.

Amazingly enough, me having a concealed carry permit does not really make me any safer around these folks. The more of them that are carrying guns around, the less safe it is no matter how many sane people have them.

Wielding a gun in a situation like a bar or restaurant is probably not going to "make it better": Last year a bunch of restaurant robberies took place in Oakland with several very well armed thieves barging into full restaurants waving automatic weapons. While California makes it very hard to get concealed carry permits, this is Oaktown, where even in a fancy restaurant, you can't be sure that there won't be similarly well-armed gang members (drug gangs in Oakland make the Mafia in New Jersey look like a ladies church group), so the usual arguments that they "could be sure they were not going to be challenged by others with guns" really goes out the window (and explains why they felt the need in several of these robberies to pack Mac-10s!).

In fact, in spite of this wave of crimes, not one shot was fired and not one person was hurt, because everyone did what the police and crime experts advise: cooperate and give them whatever they ask for.

No, it's not "fair", but quite frankly, everyone lived, and most everyone who carried out the crimes is now in prison.

Coming from a state where a permit is very difficult to get for anyone and the fact all these guns were either illegal or hypothetical I see no connection with concealed carry laws either.

I know you don't see it. You need to maybe think about the fact that it's emotion rather than logic that is leading you to your conclusions.

In this case there are several key points:
  • Because concealed carry permits are hard to get here, no one had a gun. Since no one had a gun, no one was foolish enough to challenge the perpetrators. Not foolishly challenging the perpetrators meant that they did not shoot. Gun fire not breaking out meant that no one died.
  • And all this in spite of the fact that because there are many locals who don't bother with concealed carry permits meant that the argued affect that "when criminals know that people are unarmed, they're more likely to commit crime" didn't hold here at all. It's proof that having lots of people armed--legally or not--doesn't minimize crime.
  • Even a highly trained police officer would not have challenged the gunmen in this situation, so even had one been there, it would have played out the same way. Indeed the police are trained not to provoke in situations like this, yet loose concealed carry laws would ensure that such situations escalate more often, resulting in more deaths.

The primary argument for concealed carry laws really comes down to one of "not trusting the police." In situations where the permittee is a well recognized target, there's a good excuse to let them defend themselves, but when this goes to "anyone should be able to carry a gun for any reason" is simply saying everyone should be able to use deadly force whenever they feel like it.

Sure you can charge someone after the fact for improperly using deadly force when they should not, but by then a bunch of people may be dead.

When even highly trained police officers go through their entire careers not having to use deadly force, willy nilly allowing anyone to potentially do so is, in my view, highly irresponsible, and subjects innocent people to much more danger than they would in a so called "disarmed society."

We have decided as a society that it is safer if we restrict policing powers to trained police. While this may mean that you as an individual feel more threatened with bodily harm because you do not have police powers to exercise yourself, the statistics that have driven this compromise to restricted police power clearly show that they result in less bodily injury on average.

It is ironic of course that conservatives who demand unrestricted second amendment rights for individuals on the one hand, demand a Communitarian approach to just about every other aspect of society and civil rights....

I very much disagree with this, in my state at least you do not see testosterone fueled gun battles going on. Even thought hundreds of people in my county have gun permits there has never been a case of a gun being pulled for any reason other than life or death. No pistol waving drunks or testosterone crazed individuals.

Uh huh. Okay, I guess we can take your word for that. Probably never happened anywhere. Ever.

At least not among women....

Drinking makes such fools of people, and people are such fools to begin with, that it's compounding a felony, :P
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#39 Moontanman

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 06:25 PM

It's simply evidence that in many states it's easy for psychologically unbalanced people to easily obtain them.


Not concealed carry permits, not in my state....

Amazingly enough, me having a concealed carry permit does not really make me any safer around these folks. The more of them that are carrying guns around, the less safe it is no matter how many sane people have them.


Your opinion, nothing more.

I know you don't see it. You need to maybe think about the fact that it's emotion rather than logic that is leading you to your conclusions.


If anything this is the pot calling the kettle black.



In this case there are several key points:

  • Because concealed carry permits are hard to get here, no one had a gun. Since no one had a gun, no one was foolish enough to challenge the perpetrators. Not foolishly challenging the perpetrators meant that they did not shoot. Gun fire not breaking out meant that no one died.
  • And all this in spite of the fact that because there are many locals who don't bother with concealed carry permits meant that the argued affect that "when criminals know that people are unarmed, they're more likely to commit crime" didn't hold here at all. It's proof that having lots of people armed--legally or not--doesn't minimize crime.
  • Even a highly trained police officer would not have challenged the gunmen in this situation, so even had one been there, it would have played out the same way. Indeed the police are trained not to provoke in situations like this, yet loose concealed carry laws would ensure that such situations escalate more often, resulting in more deaths.


I guess it never occurred to you that people who get concealed carry permits go through more training than just how to shoot straight? Pulling a hand gun on several people with mac10's would be insane. i wouldn't do it no one in their right mind would either.

The primary argument for concealed carry laws really comes down to one of "not trusting the police." In situations where the permittee is a well recognized target, there's a good excuse to let them defend themselves, but when this goes to "anyone should be able to carry a gun for any reason" is simply saying everyone should be able to use deadly force whenever they feel like it.


No it comes down to realizing the police cannot be every where quickly enough to prevent or even respond to many crimes. And no people who have concealed carry permits do not think they can weld deadly force any time they like. where do you get this stuff? Movies?


Sure you can charge someone after the fact for improperly using deadly force when they should not, but by then a bunch of people may be dead.


A great many times the people will be dead anyway, I would rather count on sane citizens to weld deadly force with reason than i would a bunch of criminals. Just because in this case it turned out ok is not reason to trust criminals with your life or with the power of life and death. in many cases the criminals kill everyone to make sure no wittinesses are left behind.

When even highly trained police officers go through their entire careers not having to use deadly force, willy nilly allowing anyone to potentially do so is, in my view, highly irresponsible, and subjects innocent people to much more danger than they would in a so called "disarmed society."


Very few people who conceal carry ever pull their weapons either, when society is disarmed i will give up my guns. until then I want the option of self defense.

We have decided as a society that it is safer if we restrict policing powers to trained police. While this may mean that you as an individual feel more threatened with bodily harm because you do not have police powers to exercise yourself, the statistics that have driven this compromise to restricted police power clearly show that they result in less bodily injury on average.


Who is this we you claim to be a part of? The majority of States say different, the majority of states feel the power of self defense is part of the power people should have. I feel much safer knowing my fellow citizens can defend themselves from criminals. I see no reason what so ever to believe i am safer unarmed than armed.

It is ironic of course that conservatives who demand unrestricted second amendment rights for individuals on the one hand, demand a Communitarian approach to just about every other aspect of society and civil rights....


Don't label me, you do not know me or know my politics or the politics of the people who conceal carry, we are just as different as any other random group of people, it is totally unreasonable to assume i am Conservative or Liberal in any other aspect of my life.

Uh huh. Okay, I guess we can take your word for that. Probably never happened anywhere. Ever.


I am quite certain such things happen just like it is possible a group of criminals was conscientious enough to ensure they didn't hurt any of their victums....

At least not among women....


Yeah, women never loose thier heads....

Again this thread is not a debate about concealed carry laws but a debate on whether the government should make a law about carrying gun int a restaurant or bar. concealed carry is already a fact....

#40 Buffy

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 07:41 PM

That's what I thought...I'm really glad you live in a state where the law perfectly restricts access to guns only to highly trained individuals, and that none of the citizens in your state ever act intemperately, and can all be trusted to carry a gun into a bar or restaurant.

And that you have no biker bars or Russian restaurants.

I wanna live in that state!

And yes, I know you're a flaming liberal Michael! That mention was only due to the strange bedfellows this topic creates! :clue:

Those who seek consolation in existing churches often pay for their peace of mind with a tacit agreement to ignore a great deal of what is known about the way the world works, :P
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#41 Moontanman

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 08:03 PM

That's what I thought...I'm really glad you live in a state where the law perfectly restricts access to guns only to highly trained individuals, and that none of the citizens in your state ever act intemperately, and can all be trusted to carry a gun into a bar or restaurant.


If only life was indeed so perfect or even black and white, to be honest in the last several years in my county there have been no shootings by conceal carry licensed individuals but there has been several accidental shootings by police officers, one victim was a good friend of mine. No one or no one system is perfect if it was there would be no need for anyone to have a gun.

And that you have no biker bars or Russian restaurants.


Well almost by definition a biker (real biker) wouldn't be allowed to have a concealed carry license since criminals can't get one. As for Russian restaurants I am unfamiliar with that concept.

I wanna live in that state!


Welcome to the Great North State! North Carolina!

And yes, I know you're a flaming liberal Michael! That mention was only due to the strange bedfellows this topic creates! :P


Nope, Liberal doesn't discribe me at all I am a little more complex than that Buffy.

#42 CraigD

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:11 PM

MTM, why do you need to carry around a loaded gun? What are you so insecure about? Do they have rattlesnakes and grizzly bears in NC?

Though snarkily, I believe Larv makes a valid observation about the psychology of the small minority of people who carry, legally or illegally, firearms or other weapons not required by their profession. Although I’m unaware of any scientific psychological study of the correlation of various kinds of fear and the weapon carrying, I’ve a lot of personal, anecdotal experience with very anxious, armed people. At one time, for example, both my mother and mother-in-law, residents of rural West Virginia, USA, refused to visit my neighborhood in near suburbs of Washington DC, without carrying a handgun, because of news and editorial accounts that led them to believe that my neighborhood was very dangerous. Statistically, however, as is often the case with high-unemployment, low-income rural US counties compared to high-income, low-unemployment suburban ones, the violent crime rate (per capita) of my county is about half that of theirs, the murder rate about one third. (Source: Background Checks, Criminal Records & Public Records for Mercer County WV; Background Checks, Criminal Records & Public Records for Montgomery County MD)

No larv sweetie, they have criminals, much like everywhere there are people who are willing to shoot you for something as trivial as your wallet or your car or maybe just because you happen to be in the wrong exercise class at the wrong time. I know it's difficult for you but us adults know of such things and try to take steps to defend against them.

Moontanman appears to be implying, in a condescending tone, that anyone who does not carry a firearm is not an adult, a view I think is incorrect, and unsupported by any scientific data and analysis. It’s also at odds with my personal experience, as most of the people I knew who routinely carried guns and other weapons in their teens and twenties – including me - now, about twenty-five years later, do not (not considering small pocket knives and similar items to be weapons).

As has been cited in previous hypography threads, Moontanman’s claim that incidents of crime committed by people with permits to carry concealed firearms is significantly lower than average, is supported by sound scientific data. People who routinely carry firearms and commit crimes usually carry them illegally.

#43 Moontanman

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:54 PM

I have a confession to make, I seldom carry a gun on my person. I usually keep it in my truck in the glove box, carrying a concealed weapon is not very practical, the only time of the year it is practical is in the winter and here it's not often cold enough to wear enough clothes to hide a gun even then. More women carry them in their purses than men carry them in their coats. About the only time I carry it on my person is when i am out in the boonies alone, then it's more a whistling in the dark thing than an actual need. I honestly believe in the right to conceal carry but the reality is not quite what most people would believe. One of the first things you learn in a conceal carry class is how much you put your self at risk by using a gun. legally it is very difficult to justify using a gun. A gun is the absolute last thing you do, only in real fear of your life or the life of another. To use a gun in any circumstance is an awesome responsibility, to take a life is a horrible thought. If pushed to the limit I would kill, I have no doubt but I live in such a low crime area that keeping a gun with me all the time is simply not justifiable. I worry more about people breaking into my home, outside the home in almost all conceivable circumstances i would retreat. Even from a fight I would retreat if humanly possible. Killing is wrong, even in defense of your life it would be a life changing experience that some might never recover from. I hope I will never be in a situation where I would have to shoot someone but like my sheriff friends told me, if you pull your gun then you must shoot, if you shoot you must kill so never pull your gun unless you intend to kill.....

So no i don't think the gov should make a law but I think the owner of a bar or restaurant has the right to refuse service to a person carrying a gun.
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#44 UncleAl

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 01:12 PM

Sunday 30 August 2009, Los Angeles Times, front page: "Bullets are flying off the shelves" .380 ACP is your basic concealed carry gun. "Cheaper Than Dirt" (check ableammo.com or natchezss.com before you buy) sold a box of .380 for $12. A check right now shows... All Federal, Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Cor-Bon, Speer, Glaser, Magtech, Wolf, Fiocchi OUT OF STOCK. That leaves ammo you wouldn't put in your own gun... costing up to $50/box.

Take the hint. When the commie pinko ultra-liberal LA Times runs that kind of front page story Uncle Al buys another case of 12 ga. shotgun, alternating #4 (crowds) and #0 (individuals) Buck. Uncle Al cares to send the very best. Assault is a behavior, not a device. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

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#45 lemit

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:25 PM

I don't own a gun. I haven't owned one since I became an adult. I think of them pretty much like I think of other personal explosives (fireworks): childish displays of destructiveness showing people don't know their own power and need to in some way prove themselves by blowing things up, either directly or indirectly. (I wonder if men need some length and width in a gun barrel for some reason or other.)

I live in one of the safest cities in the U.S., which probably means it's about as safe as the safest cities in Iraq. I leave my doors unlocked and keep antiques on my front porch. People are welcome to take my stuff as long as they leave me and my pets alone.

I don't go to bars, but I go to restaurants a couple times a month. (I mostly stay at home, rocking slowly with my shotgun across my lap.) I'd think of carrying a concealed weapon into one of those restaurants as being the equivalent of carrying firearms into a crowded theatre. I suppose a concealed Molotov cocktail should be allowed, shouldn't it? It actually is less likely to kill somebody than a gun is. If you want real firepower, how about a hand grenade? They're easily concealed.

Like I said, I'm not a gun person, since I think they're childish displays of insecurity, but since we're talking about taking concealed weapons into a crowded bar or restaurant, shouldn't we be able to take concealed weapons into a theatre, or hospital, or onto a bus, or train, or airplane, or into a school? Is the crowd at Chucky Cheese different from the crowd at your local elementary school? Also, couldn't you carry, say, a Desert Eagle .44 Magnum repeating pistol into a crowded restaurant? That way you could take care of quite a few of the old folks at Country Buffet before they had a chance to use their concealed weapons on you, since their reactions are generally a little slower.

This thread is patently absurd, but I'm not sure the people contributing to it realize that. I hope I never happen to be in the same room with any of them. I got into close quarters with a yellowjacket--and got stung--last week. That's enough poisonous paranoia for me.

--lemit

#46 Moontanman

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:58 AM

Lemit you have made your opinion of people who use and or carry guns quite clear. Of course we all know about people and their opinions. Yes i feel like anyone who has managed to get a permit to conceal carry should be able to carry them anywhere. No lemit no one is carrying guns so they can shoot it out with other law abiding citizens. I think it's great that you put your valuables out for the criminals so they can get at them easier, do you put your cash on the front lawn every night? The only thing absurd about this thread is your post full of goofy inane bullshit about guns and the people who own/carry them....

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#47 Larv

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 08:44 AM

I have a confession to make, I seldom carry a gun on my person. I usually keep it in my truck in the glove box...

In the glovebox of your truck? Then you are not a responsible gun owner. This is precisely how guns get into the hands of criminals. Your gun-toting insecurity is putting me at risk. Time to grow up, cowboy.

#48 Moontanman

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:08 AM

In the glovebox of your truck? Then you are not a responsible gun owner. This is precisely how guns get into the hands of criminals. Your gun-toting insecurity is putting me at risk. Time to grow up, cowboy.


No larv the problem is all the amendments to the concealed carry laws the idiot stick anti gun nuts have managed to pass make it almost impossible to carry a gun. It's rare I go anywhere i can carry my gun so I have to leave it in my locked truck, in a locked glove compartment. Yes i could carry my gun inside most places and since it's concealed no one would know but I prefer to abide by the law. Carrying a concealed weapon is for the most part too much trouble due to these exceptions. There is no pleasing the anti gun nuts, they only want criminals to have guns, it would be such a terrible thing for a honest law abiding citizen to have a gun, wow we might interfere with the robberies, rapes, and killings being performed by criminals. Cowboy up Larv, stop trying to equate a licensed citizen carrying a gun to being a criminal. Criminals are far more dangerous than licensed citizens carrying guns, one day you just might owe your life to a citizen carrying a gun, one thing is sure, a citizen with a gun is far less dangerous than a criminal with one. Leaving my gun in the locked car and glove box when I run in the bank is highly unlikely to result in a criminal getting my gun.

#49 Larv

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:21 AM

…one thing is sure, a citizen with a gun is far less dangerous than a criminal with one.

Please provide evidence that this is true. How do I know that your citizen with a gun will not shoot me when he’s trying to shoot the criminal? Don’t we have armed police to deal with armed criminals? How does a gun-toting citizen make me any safer? Should I just assume that he is a crack shot like Clint Eastwood and only shoots the bad guys? You watch too many westerns, I fear.

#50 Moontanman

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:49 AM

Please provide evidence that this is true. How do I know that your citizen with a gun will not shoot me when he’s trying to shoot the criminal? Don’t we have armed police to deal with armed criminals? How does a gun-toting citizen make me any safer? Should I just assume that he is a crack shot like Clint Eastwood and only shoots the bad guys? You watch too many westerns, I fear.


A citizen with a gun is not going to use it unless his life is in danger. You are doing your best to make it look like anyone can go down to wal-mart and get a concealed carry permit like you can a fishing license. People who conceal carry do have to show some proficiency with their fire arm, they are not Barney fife who doesn't know which end of the barrel the bullet goes in. More importantly you have to have enough knowledge of the law to know you do not pull out your gun to impress the girls or for any other reason other than fear of real and immediate danger to your life. Yes we do have armed police to deal with criminals, almost always after the crime has been committed. The police are virtually never there when a crime is being committed. You have more assurance the citizen will not shoot than you have the criminal won't shoot you. Some people here seem to think that if you just cooperate with a criminal he somehow magically becomes your friend and will not harm you as long as you get on your knees and surrender to him. Many times criminals will simply shoot you to keep from leaving a witness. School shootings are a prime example of a citizen having a gun is better than just the criminals having a gun. If the teachers at the school shootings had a gun they could have killed the shooters instead of being shot along with every one else the shooters wanted to shoot. many shootings where people are simply killed would have turned out differently if someone on the scene had a gun other than the shooter. The idea behind having a concealed weapon isn't to protect property, it's to defend your life. If you shoot some one over property you will be in big trouble. Most of the laws written to prohibit a gun from being carried into various places are just plain silly as though a citizen with a gun will somehow be overcome by the need to rob a bank if they go inside wit their gun, or that carrying your gun into a school will somehow result in the gun jumping out of your pocket and killing someone. larv it is you that have been watching to many movies, you seem to think the only reason to conceal carry is to live out the dream of the shoot out at the OK corral, nothing could be farther from the truth. The idea of pulling your gun is a nightmare, only the absolute direst of scenarios can justify making that nightmare come true. The "cowboys" are weeded out during the process of getting your permit.

#51 Larv

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:19 AM

You have more assurance the citizen will not shoot than you have the criminal won't shoot you.

I do? Where do I go to get that assurance? When I observe the caliber of people who go out and get conceal carry permits I am not very reassured. In fact, I'd fear for my life if any of them ever whipped out their pistolas and started shooting. Give me shelter!

Montanman, please, I am not so shallow as to believe in your bumper-sticker gun religion: "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns." Or this one's cute: "Guns don't kill people, only people kill people."

I'd prefer this one: "Guns don't kill people, only bullets kill people."