Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Ionized Water Systems - SCAM ?


  • Please log in to reply
50 replies to this topic

#1 vja4Him

vja4Him

    Curious

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 02 August 2009 - 07:45 PM

Does anyone know much about the ionized water systems? A good friend of mine, who is a dentist, recently purchased the Kangen ionized water system, and claims that drinking the Kangen magic water has changed his life, and given him miraculous health!

Is there any truth to the claims that drinking ionized water, especially the Kangen, which claims to be the best, will cure many kinds of illnesses and physical problems, and give you new vitality and energy?

Any knowledgable scientists out there? What do you have to say?

#2 freeztar

freeztar

    Pondering

  • Members
  • 8432 posts

Posted 03 August 2009 - 01:35 AM

Yes, it is pseudoscientific junk. :photos:

Our bodies are self-regulating. If you drink some lemon juice, the acidic pH will be mitigated while being processed in your intestines. Otherwise, body pH levels would swing wildly, which would have devastating effects on the body.

Also, the phrase "ionized water" is very misleading. Pure water can not be ionized to any noticeable extent. Also, pure H2O is the standard by which we base alkalinity and acidity. Water is by definition, pH 7.0. The only way to change this is to add some ionic elements/compounds. Electricity needs ions to conduct, so electrolysis isn't going to accomplish much (nothing) with pure water. (this is why electrolysis is performed with some kind of ionic solution - such as salt water)

But don't take my word for it. Read here...

Here, in a nutshell, are a few basic facts that I believe anyone with a solid background in chemistry or physiology would concur with:

* "Ionized water" is nothing more than sales fiction; the term is meaningless to chemists.
* Pure water (that is, water containing no dissolved ions) is too unconductive to undergo signficant electrolysis by "water ionizer" devices.
* Pure water can never be alkaline or acidic, nor can it be made so by electrolysis. Alkaline water must contain metallic ions of some kind — most commonly, sodium, calcium or magnesium.
* The idea that one must consume alkaline water to neutralize the effects of acidic foods is ridiculous; we get rid of excess acid by exhaling carbon dioxide.
* If you do drink alkaline water, its alkalinity is quickly removed by the highly acidic gastric fluid in the stomach.
* Uptake of water occurs mainly in the intestine, not in the stomach. But when stomach contents enter the intestine, they are neutralized and made alkaline by the pancreatic secretions — so all the water you drink eventually becomes alkaline anyway.
* The claims about the health benefits of drinking alkaline water are not supported by credible scientific evidence.
* There is nothing wrong with drinking slightly acidic waters such as rainwater. "Body pH" is a meaningless concept; different parts of the body (and even of individual cells) can have widely different pH values. The pH of drinking water has zero effect on that of the blood or of the body's cells.
* If you really want to de-acidify your stomach (at the possible cost of interfering with protein digestion), why spend hundreds of dollars for an electrolysis device when you can take calcium-magnesium pills, Alka-Seltzer or Milk of Magnesia?
* Electrolysis devices are generally worthless for treating water for health enhancement, removal of common impurities, disinfection, and scale control. Claims that "ionized" waters are antioxidants are untrue; hypochlorites (present in most such waters) are in fact oxidizing agents.

"Ionized" and alkaline water: snake oil on tap

#3 UncleAl

UncleAl

    Creating

  • Members
  • 1212 posts

Posted 03 August 2009 - 06:07 PM

STURGEON WAS AN OPTIMIST
The short form analysis.

#4 somasimple

somasimple

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 01:02 AM

Yes, it is pseudoscientific junk. :dog:


Also, the phrase "ionized water" is very misleading. Pure water can not be ionized to any noticeable extent.


Well, :(
Read this...
Can water store charge? [Langmuir. 2009] - PubMed Result

#5 freeztar

freeztar

    Pondering

  • Members
  • 8432 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 01:17 AM

Well, :dog:
Read this...
Can water store charge? [Langmuir. 2009] - PubMed Result


I would love to read it, but I can only access the abstract.

Can you summarize its main points, please?

#6 somasimple

somasimple

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 04:51 AM

Here is is a ink to the free full text:
Enjoy;
BTW, it makes sense since water is a polar molecule.
ACS Publications - Cookie absent

#7 freeztar

freeztar

    Pondering

  • Members
  • 8432 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:54 PM

Thank you for the link. :)

It was a very interesting read and I'm not sure what to make of it. Water as a natural battery? :)

But, I do not believe it gives any credence to these ionized water claims. Another study showing the health benefits of "ionized water" would be a step in the right direction for the skeptical. :)

#8 somasimple

somasimple

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 11:31 PM

But, I do not believe it gives any credence to these ionized water claims. Another study showing the health benefits of "ionized water" would be a step in the right direction for the skeptical. :)

The better way to ionize water is to add salt... :)

#9 freeztar

freeztar

    Pondering

  • Members
  • 8432 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 11:36 PM

The better way to ionize water is to add salt... :)


Like...salt water?

:)

#10 somasimple

somasimple

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:30 AM

Yes,
Salt is Na+ and Cl-: Clearly they are ions.
Seriously, water preserves electroneutrality because it dampens all ions (electrostatic forces) in it.
Water make a shield around ions that diminishes its strength but water gets at the same time a little force from the enclosed ions. The H bonds are simply enlarged or reduced in distance...

#11 freeztar

freeztar

    Pondering

  • Members
  • 8432 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:16 AM

Yes,
Salt is Na+ and Cl-: Clearly they are ions.
Seriously, water preserves electroneutrality because it dampens all ions (electrostatic forces) in it.


Seriously, water (in its pure form) is non-ionic.
The study you have presented is interesting on its own merits, but it does not support your hypothesis.

Water make a shield around ions that diminishes its strength but water gets at the same time a little force from the enclosed ions. The H bonds are simply enlarged or reduced in distance...


So water makes a sheild now? Are you using the pH imbalance argument from your link?

Your link speaks for itself. I'm not a chemist, so my interpretation of it is wholly inadequate. Yet, you seem to have a strong argument. Leverage that strength if you do anything with it. :)

#12 somasimple

somasimple

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:26 AM

I was told that MRI units works because it change the orientation of water molecules :
Diffusion MRI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
here is a page about ion hydration: How is it possible to a ion to attract water molecules if they are non ionic?
Ion hydration and aqueous solutions of salts

#13 somasimple

somasimple

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:28 AM

Seriously, water (in its pure form) is non-ionic.

It is not what chemists say:
Water molecule structure

#14 freeztar

freeztar

    Pondering

  • Members
  • 8432 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:38 AM

It is not what chemists say:
Water molecule structure


Perhaps you'd care to update this entry then?

WikiAnswers - What type of compound is water

How are the electrons accounted for with the pure water sample?

#15 somasimple

somasimple

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:43 AM

Posted Image
The approximate shape and charge distribution of water
What is a charge?

#16 freeztar

freeztar

    Pondering

  • Members
  • 8432 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:52 AM

Posted Image
The approximate shape and charge distribution of water
What is a charge?


A charge, as far as I know, is an accumulation of electrons.
I was not aware of an association between charge and pH, as your link suggests. The dye test is particularly interesting.

I'd really like to know more about this. Was the experiment able to pass reproduction?
Were the results statistically viable?

Thanks,
freezy

#17 somasimple

somasimple

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 05:31 AM

A charge, as far as I know, is an accumulation of electrons.
I was not aware of an association between charge and pH, as your link suggests. The dye test is particularly interesting.

What happens when we have a positive charge? ;)
How are you able to cite a PH without knowing that it is about the H+ charge contained in a solution? :)
pH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia