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We Must Never Forget: Remembering the Holocaust


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#35 lemit

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 07:05 AM

Kriminal99 (I first wrote Kriminal00. I should have left it.) has described pretty accurately my father's side of my family.

Funny, I didn't know I was Jewish. How could the genealogists in my family have missed that?

--lemit

#36 Kriminal99

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 07:12 AM

Racism has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I am talking about the way people decide to behave. Just like how rap culture's mistreatment of women and materialism has a negative effect on people who subscribe to it.

I don't think this is something that is equally true of all other religions and cultures. There are definitely other cultures that inadvertently discourage individualism, and ones that discourage straightforward confrontation to the point of encouraging passive aggressiveness. And there are ones that encourage elitism. But none of these seem to combine these things in the same vile way as Jewish culture.

I am talking about average behaviors from jew to jew versus average behaviors from other groups.

I am not even sure that jewish people can easily realize this about themselves from their point of view. This is something that someone sorely needs to be pointed out in my opinion.

I think what I am saying can be recognized from the point of view of their own religion. For example, jewish law is fairly lax (if you happen to be a jew at least) in that for example if you steal something, you must pay it back or work for the person until you have paid them back. There are other cultures that actually use similar customs effectively - such that a person is taught to love the person they would have stolen from by becoming familiar with them.

Perhaps if fully implemented, the jewish approach towards such things would effectively build character. But it isn't usually implemented because they don't have the authority to make the laws where they live. Thus violence or straightforward confrontation is a taboo but they never learn to lose the will to destroy another person through other means.

#37 Kriminal99

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 08:03 AM

Greetz
Since this is ostensibly a Science forum and since I have great confidence that "a mind convinced against it's will, remains unconvinc-ed still" and how Free Speech actually does work and is not just "pie in the sky", I will refrain from polarizing with recriminations.

Kriminal99, I wonder just how big or small a sample you think you should require before assuming you know something about "all" of anything? Do you suppose for example that Albert Einstein fits your description of Americanized Jews? Was he an illogical snot? I am quite certain that you know more females than you know Jews so do you think you can generalize about all females? Obviously you can if you so choose but aren't you the least bit concerned as to what that says about your powers of deduction? your maturity? your judgment? your humanity?

If someone is feeding you this oversimplified tripe, they are feeding you poison and it will corrupt you as surely as believing 1 plus 1 equals 4, but with greater social consequences. There is a big difference between ignorant and stupid. Ignorance can be cured while stupidity is to the bone. It would likely serve you well to do some serious reading on the subject of bigotry and intolerance and how it begins, unless you simply don't care how you are perceived or where your life is headed. There are plenty of fringe groups that will take in and take over a person who expresses such prejudice, and leave you swinging in the breeze once they've used you up for their agenda. Be careful.

I sincerely wish you well and hope you manage to rise above this myopic view to which you seem to subscribe.


Sample size? I have met far more than the number of people required to establish a decent confidence interval. Furthermore, with small sample sizes, there is a significance to there being many successes or failures in a row.

Alot of the jews I grew up around had very similar personality traits, both from my family, the ones that went to my schools, the ones I meet on the street, etc. Sure some of them are different, but not many. Part of it also is seeing the type of personality they hold up as role models, like when they all agree to like a certain person, and then that certain person has the personality I have described. I have seen this over and over again in different groups of jewish people I know.

Also, consider that many pieces of anti-Semitic propaganda references many of the same things I am talking about. People can claim they hate a race, but it is against human nature to truly do so. IMO the focus of the propaganda on poor Jewish behaviors demonstrates this.

Now, a lot of groups and cultures inadvertently prevent individualism, but not many of them inadvertently encourage passive aggressiveness as well. I am not saying that african cultures where individualism is nearly non-existent and waves of genocidal blood lust often occur is better either. Valuing group norms over truth is bad. Killing is bad and is just as inflamatory as passive aggressive behavior.

I am not the type of person to be influenced in the manner you are describing.

#38 lemit

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 08:18 AM

Kriminal,

You've given your impressions of a lot of people you don't know. I don't know you, but I've developed a few impressions of you.

You give the arguments of someone who has met maybe a half dozen Jewish people and has taken all the rest of his opinions from other Antisemites. Growing up on a farm in backwoods Missouri, I knew enough Jewish people to refute your stereotypes.

You probably don't know the difference between semantics and Semites, or semantics and usage, as you don't know the difference between racism and Atisemitism. Bigotry has many forms. How many and which of those forms do you wish to practice here?

Don't hide behind the claim that you are just talking about your own family, your own people. That doesn't square with your uninformed assumptions. But, if you did have Jewish blood in you and felt so flawed in your own person, you could have conducted your own self-holocaust and not troubled the rest of us with your irrational babble.

You also give the impression of someone who rarely crawls out from under his bigoted rock. I'm sorry I turned it over.

--lemit

#39 Boerseun

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 11:19 PM

Okay guys - come off it.

Krim, your posts are important in the fact that they perfectly illustrate how bigotry can be rationalized to the point where it makes perfect sense to the individual. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that all the Jews you met come from New York. Let's say that they are all a bunch of cynic materialistic self-righteous bastards. Hence all Jews are like that. Have you considered that maybe all New Yorkers could be like that, and that it has nothing to do with their race and/or faith?

Lemit, I think the best course of action would be not to take the bait.

I apologise to any New Yorkers here, I don't know anybody from New York, I just used it as an example.

Although I'm offended by Krim's point of view, I think its important to leave them here to illustrate how easily one gets to slip down that soapy slope which leads to things like the holocaust, by individuals rationalizing the irrational.

But let's get back on topic, shall we?

#40 enorbet2

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 02:20 AM

Sample size? I have met far more than the number of people required to establish a decent confidence interval. Furthermore, with small sample sizes, there is a significance to there being many successes or failures in a row.



OK since this is a science forum it behooves you to back up this point, if possible, either through some widely accepted example or from a scientific study's results. I don't know the particulars of your first sentence and I know only a little about people polls. However I do know that even if 5 out of 10 people are "A" that it is unscientific, if not impossible to determine which individuals are "A" without more data upon which to base a conclusion. I also know quite well that even with something as defined and limited to binary such as flipping a coin, that even if heads comes up each of the first 5 times, that has no bearing on the outcome of the next toss. It's still 50/50, heads/tails.... unless the coin is biased in some way.

To stay on topic, it is worth noting that such discussion is exactly why not only the Holocaust, but all crimes against humanity, should not be forgotten precisely to bring about dialogue that may help people avoid such slippery slopes before they get to actual violence or disenfranchisement. With polarization, that dialogue stops, and dialogue is just as important within oneself as it is with others, especially if one would like to keep and grow his conscience.

#41 alexander

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 08:48 PM

Let me catch up with all this, lets start with something humorous, ease the current tension here

IT has happened before WWI, and after WWII, and it will
happen again.

Yes, World War V, (yes not III or IV, but V) (those who watch Family Guy, enjoy the reference)

That said, down to business.

To his defense, I think Kriminal's post (#29) is not so much a diss on jewish culture, people, or anything else, but a simple expression of one of his life's most dormant frustrations, dormant and building; unfortunately the hardest frustrations to work with, there's just so much there, its like playing with a super volcano, pop the lid and who knows what will happen next.

That said, i do have a problem with that post. It seems that your frustrations come out of your countless attempts at logical discussions of your family's faith with your family, in an attempt to prove them wrong (everyone goes through that time). It seems you are driven to prove that they are wrong, what they believe is wrong, and that you are right, you know the only right answer, thus that you hold the key. The problem with that scenario is that as people who believe they will not only not come to think logically with you, they wont listen, they wont change their views, after all, they are people seeking salvation for their entire lives, and you are saying that they have been wrong all this time. This is not only pointless, its wrong on your part to do so, you are trying to take their hope away from them, and you are wrong in so-doing. You should respect people and their beliefs, even if you dont agree with them, if nothing you learn from the good aspects of religion, learn to do that, people's failed realization of that very principal, coupled with the superiority conflicts, is what causes most conflicts in our society.

About the whole space issue. I understand, you, being an american, have your ideas about what your personal space is, and who and when is intruding on it. While i am not saying you are right or wrong on that, that is simply how this society defines personal space, it differs greatly from region to region, from society to society, and believe me your different views on this with your family are not caused by religious differences, but more based on your background. Ideas of personal space change with locations and times, if you move to Europe, you will have to get quickly get used to the fact that your personal space will now be cut in 1/4, with more public transport and population density, this will drive you nuts for weeks on end. More severe case would be moving to Japan, you will get less then a 1/10th of the space, this will bewilder you, but cramped quarters, public transport, density of population and the way of their society leave little room for personal space (though arguably it will probably not be the thing that will drive you crazy for a bit the most)

That said, you still provide a gross overgeneralization based on a few small personal experiences you've had, based on what you believe is right, its all about the point from which to look, i think this general concept coming out of the general relativity is as philosophical as it is a physics concept.

Once again, its not a religion that creates the stereotypes that you describe, Kriminal, its the society, the location, the time, and what happened to them. I will leave you on this deep thought, consider that one of the major reasons for singling out a kid in school to pick on, is to not be picked on yourself... think about it...
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#42 Kriminal99

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 02:37 PM

Kriminal,

You've given your impressions of a lot of people you don't know. I don't know you, but I've developed a few impressions of you.

You give the arguments of someone who has met maybe a half dozen Jewish people and has taken all the rest of his opinions from other Antisemites. Growing up on a farm in backwoods Missouri, I knew enough Jewish people to refute your stereotypes.

You probably don't know the difference between semantics and Semites, or semantics and usage, as you don't know the difference between racism and Atisemitism. Bigotry has many forms. How many and which of those forms do you wish to practice here?

Don't hide behind the claim that you are just talking about your own family, your own people. That doesn't square with your uninformed assumptions. But, if you did have Jewish blood in you and felt so flawed in your own person, you could have conducted your own self-holocaust and not troubled the rest of us with your irrational babble.

You also give the impression of someone who rarely crawls out from under his bigoted rock. I'm sorry I turned it over.

--lemit


The current level of understanding of such things as "stereotypes" and "racism" is naive at best, something which seems can only be attributed to the fact that such topics are so taboo everywhere.

First racism: To begin with this has nothing to do with racism, but rather a backwards culture. Judaism is a religion.

Second, there is only one type of behavior that can be validly classified as racism in a manner that it should be perceived of negatively. That is ignoring evidence of someone's ability or accomplishments in favor of reasoning based on the less correlated information of their race.

If for some reason, you had nothing to go on when making a hiring decision but the person's race, it would be totally valid and acceptable to hire a member of the race with the highest average IQ. To not do so would mean that you were spending more on training on average. Racism is when you don't hire a member of a low average IQ race who happens to be a rhodes scholar with a perfect GPA just because he is a member of that race.

Second, Stereotypes: Stereotypes seem to refer to completely valid and necessary reasoning. It refers to the situation where all you have to go on is the person's race and/or appearance. In which case, you use the best correlations you have record of regarding just those to guess at what to expect from that person. Again the only time it is wrong is when a person does not want to let go of that stereotype, which is mainly what annoys people to begin with.

If you don't like stereotypes you have several options.
1) Influence the group you are a member of to stop doing whatever it is that your group is being stereotyped to do.
2) Interact with the person stereotyping you until they no you well enough that stereotypes are irrelevant.
3) Make some effort to alter the general populace's understanding of the stereotyped behavior, if it is something that is actually done by your group but not understood.

#43 pamela

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 03:14 PM

Krim, i fail to see the relevance here. Your comments were hateful. Contrived out of your inability to separate the actions of an individual to a collective sum of people. You are stereotyping with derision and contempt and your solutions that you have suggesed are from a lofty ego. The problem lies within the person who is doing the stereotyping, not the people they are confronting The change begins with you.

#44 Kriminal99

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 03:32 PM

To his defense, I think Kriminal's post (#29) is not so much a diss on jewish culture, people, or anything else, but a simple expression of one of his life's most dormant frustrations, dormant and building; unfortunately the hardest frustrations to work with, there's just so much there, its like playing with a super volcano, pop the lid and who knows what will happen next.

That said, i do have a problem with that post. It seems that your frustrations come out of your countless attempts at logical discussions of your family's faith with your family, in an attempt to prove them wrong (everyone goes through that time). It seems you are driven to prove that they are wrong, what they believe is wrong, and that you are right, you know the only right answer, thus that you hold the key. The problem with that scenario is that as people who believe they will not only not come to think logically with you, they wont listen, they wont change their views, after all, they are people seeking salvation for their entire lives, and you are saying that they have been wrong all this time. This is not only pointless, its wrong on your part to do so, you are trying to take their hope away from them, and you are wrong in so-doing. You should respect people and their beliefs, even if you dont agree with them, if nothing you learn from the good aspects of religion, learn to do that, people's failed realization of that very principal, coupled with the superiority conflicts, is what causes most conflicts in our society.

About the whole space issue. I understand, you, being an american, have your ideas about what your personal space is, and who and when is intruding on it. While i am not saying you are right or wrong on that, that is simply how this society defines personal space, it differs greatly from region to region, from society to society, and believe me your different views on this with your family are not caused by religious differences, but more based on your background. Ideas of personal space change with locations and times, if you move to Europe, you will have to get quickly get used to the fact that your personal space will now be cut in 1/4, with more public transport and population density, this will drive you nuts for weeks on end. More severe case would be moving to Japan, you will get less then a 1/10th of the space, this will bewilder you, but cramped quarters, public transport, density of population and the way of their society leave little room for personal space (though arguably it will probably not be the thing that will drive you crazy for a bit the most)

That said, you still provide a gross overgeneralization based on a few small personal experiences you've had, based on what you believe is right, its all about the point from which to look, i think this general concept coming out of the general relativity is as philosophical as it is a physics concept.

Once again, its not a religion that creates the stereotypes that you describe, Kriminal, its the society, the location, the time, and what happened to them. I will leave you on this deep thought, consider that one of the major reasons for singling out a kid in school to pick on, is to not be picked on yourself... think about it...


There is some truth to what you are saying about me dealing with personal frustrations, but I have rarely if ever debated faith with family members. In fact, my more immediate family members are not orthodox jews, but rather merely went to "sunday school" (as my dad calls it) and interacted with parents who may have had a slightly more prevalent jewish background, as evidenced by great aunts/uncles who are much more orthodox. They ate bacon and ham, but never "pork" since it was against their religion as my dad jokingly says.

My dad has his own philosophies etc that he does not directly attribute to Judaism, but that seem influenced by it (He often goes on about how we are really all just One, and thus when you see someone else with something good it's just like another part of yourself).

What I was alluding to was a general inability to reason with my family members regarding ANYTHING. I see their everyday behavior as dishonest and passive aggressive, but I cannot reason with them regarding this perhaps because this everyday behavior is closely entwined with their conditioning.

They all have this sort of sheep mentality that makes it impossible to convince them of anything because they all defer final judgment to each other (the group as a whole). This is fairly common amongst all people, but with jews it seems to take on a particularly vile tone. The part of this that affects me most is the policy of non-violence.

Sometimes it happens that certain teachings have a robust enough effect that they foster similar behavior regardless of all the factors you mention or even regardless of if the person accepts the majority of the teachings. . I believe this is the case with Judaism.

To begin with, Judaism fosters extreme close-mindedness by rejecting outright arguments by anyone who does not agree with the majority of jewish teachings. This is common in other religions, but jewish ideas seem to influence their behavior more in everyday life, seem farther away from natural morality, and when a conflict arises they don't confront their opponents in an honest manner because their policy of nonviolence. I am sure there are profound jewish people out there with great personality traits - the high IQ ones that best no how to reconcile jewish ideas with natural morality. But I think the average effect on common people is small mindedness.

So even if you had the best argument ever that might convince everyone that heard it, you couldn't convince a group of jews because in their eyes you aren't starting from the right perspective. If you were jewish, and agreed with all jewish ideas except maybe one and then debated it, you might have a chance if you used specious group persuading arguments. If you disagree with several of them then they just reject you as a whole and everything you might say because you are not part of the group. Imagine the frustration of other groups of people with totally different ideas trying to deal with this.

This is really just describing a particularly obnoxious type of close-mindedness. Other groups of people probably perceive this as like me saying something like "Me and my cat know you are wrong, so we don't have to listen to anything you say about why I shouldn't say things about you behind your back that I wouldn't dare say to your face for fear of losing the argument". Except a jew wouldn't say that, they would just imply it by ignoring your arguments and playing with their cat until you left at which point they would resume saying absurdly ridiculous negative things about you. So yeah... of course they are going to get kicked around.

Second, for them physical confrontation is taboo. Physical confrontation is a necessary counter to dishonesty. If someone lies, acts in a deceptive manner, purposely misrepresents something you said etc, you can just say "Ok, you are attempting to use force in a selfish manner, so I will use more direct force" and ideally wrestle the person until you are both exhausted and both agree to be fair and honest in every sense.

Since physical confrontation is taboo, deceptive behavior runs amok. The vast majority of jewish people I have met are MASTERS OF BULLSHIT. Do I think all jewish people are like this? No. I am talking about average effects on average people.

I don't have issues directly with personal space. I would probably like it better if a group of people were ALWAYS THERE because then they couldn't get away long enough to spew some ridiculous bs about me behind my back. What annoys me is when people want personal information on me, then make judgments about it, that they refuse to share with me because they know I would defeat those judegements... or perhaps even if they were right about something they might do it so they could have some reason to consider themselves better than another person.

#45 Kriminal99

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 03:39 PM

Krim, i fail to see the relevance here. Your comments were hateful. Contrived out of your inability to separate the actions of an individual to a collective sum of people. You are stereotyping with derision and contempt and your solutions that you have suggesed are from a lofty ego. The problem lies within the person who is doing the stereotyping, not the people they are confronting The change begins with you.


This is incorrect. You are simply too sensitive to reason objectively regarding the issue.

The closest thing resembling an argument in this post is the claim of "failing to seperate actions of an individual from a group". This is wrong. I am talking about average behaviors of jewish people as recognized by me and many others.

This is derived from personal experiences, experiences of others, and logical arguments regarding how jewish teachings would effect behaviors.

#46 pamela

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 03:59 PM

This is incorrect. You are simply too sensitive to reason objectively regarding the issue.

geeze krim , stereotyping me as a typical female????

The closest thing resembling an argument in this post is the claim of "failing to seperate actions of an individual from a group". This is wrong. I am talking about average behaviors of jewish people as recognized by me and many others

Behaviour is an individual thing that is derived out of oneself for whatever reason they deem. Shall i stereotype you and your behaviour? all people who have authority issues seek to attack and insult all others who do not conform to their thought
now, that would not be fair of me now would it? and quite insensitive at best;)

This is derived from personal experiences, experiences of others, and logical arguments regarding how jewish teachings would effect behaviors

well your experiences would certainly be empirical evidence , now wouldnt they?:hihi:
and what pray tell, logical arguments are you referring to? back it up, buster:)

#47 Kriminal99

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 04:18 PM

geeze krim , stereotyping me as a typical female????


Behaviour is an individual thing that is derived out of oneself for whatever reason they deem. Shall i stereotype you and your behaviour? all people who have authority issues seek to attack and insult all others who do not conform to their thought
now, that would not be fair of me now would it? and quite insensitive at best;)

well your experiences would certainly be empirical evidence , now wouldnt they?:hihi:
and what pray tell, logical arguments are you referring to? back it up, buster:)


Female? I was talking about your poorly reasoned emotional outbursts in response to logical arguments, not your gender.

Probability theory is a well developed discipline as was epistemology before that. There is no reason to use naive folk reasoning like "stereotypes".

Your claim about behavior is silly. In ancient Sparta, there was no marriage and women mated with other men when their original mates went to battle. This didn't incite rampant jealousy though, because all men were equal citizens and thus no one could be perceived to be better than another. This ideology was effectively taught to the women and affected how attractive they perceived the men to be. Of course, there was variance, but on average the conditioning and ideology had a profound effect on their behavior. Such examples are prevalent in every culture.

Why should Judiasm be any different? In fact how can you claim that anything, especially something philosophical or religious in nature, can be said without affecting behavior of people listening?

What is it you think you are trying to say about my experiences? Experiences ARE empirical evidence. That's what empirical means. The most you can claim is that I am lying or that my perspective is slanted... or at least you could do the latter if I wasn't DIRECTLY PRESENTING WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND HOW I THINK IT RELATES TO JEWISH CULTURE.

authority issues? What authority? The only authority is derived from truth. I don't understand where you people get this idea that any moron can run up on a hill and declare themselves an authority.

You have to know something and have a valid purpose to have authority.

#48 pamela

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 04:41 PM

your experiences are subjective- biased by what you think they are saying or doing- did ya document it krim?
careful now, your caps may may me think you are having an emotional outburst;)
now, if we are done here, might we please get back on topic?

#49 Kriminal99

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 02:57 PM

your experiences are subjective- biased by what you think they are saying or doing- did ya document it krim?
careful now, your caps may may me think you are having an emotional outburst;)
now, if we are done here, might we please get back on topic?


If I say I saw a red apple how exactly does your claim of subjectivity apply?

I fully understand the value of the scientific method, but it far from invalidates normal reasoning... rather it is just a minor tweak that deals with practical issues that occur in large scales. All you are doing is saying that I am lying about the majority of jews I have had experiences with, or maybe that I had sampling bias, which is something I fully understand and was a major factor in my coming to this conclusion to begin with. In other words, jews that have nothing to do with my family and are from a totally different part of America or even some other countries have had similar traits in my experience.

Why would I even be motivated to talk about this if it wasn't true? Why would all of those people hate jews so much if there wasn't something that was at the very least annoying about them? Sure there was a lot of propaganda involved. But you can't use propaganda to convince people of something like "up is down, down is up".

I am on topic. What better way to remember the holocaust then to look at why it might have happened.

#50 pamela

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 04:16 PM

If I say I saw a red apple how exactly does your claim of subjectivity apply?

well krim first off i have yet to see a solid red color apple and what shade of red is it? and what type? is it a red delicious, macintosh, or possible a love apple which is a tomato???


I fully understand the value of the scientific method, but it far from invalidates normal reasoning... rather it is just a minor tweak that deals with practical issues that occur in large scales. All you are doing is saying that I am lying about the majority of jews I have had experiences with, or maybe that I had sampling bias, which is something I fully understand and was a major factor in my coming to this conclusion to begin with. In other words, jews that have nothing to do with my family and are from a totally different part of America or even some other countries have had similar traits in my experience

I would never say that you are lying krim, i think maybe you have had some not so pleasant experiences with people that may have jaded your view. Many people share those attributes that you have described, it does not belong to one culture exclusively.

Why would I even be motivated to talk about this if it wasn't true? Why would all of those people hate jews so much if there wasn't something that was at the very least annoying about them? Sure there was a lot of propaganda involved. But you can't use propaganda to convince people of something like "up is down, down is up".

People often talk about things that are not true-they talk because they are troubled. Look, your words are annoying to me, but i dont hate you- i would even venture to say that i like you- hence taking the time to post back instead of harbouring a resentment:)


I am on topic. What better way to remember the holocaust then to look at why it might have happened.

OMG!! i sincerely hope that i am misunderstanding that inuendo

#51 alexander

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 04:36 PM

I think your guys argument is not taking this anywhere, pam, luv ya dearly, but please be the better of the the two, Krim, stop it, past few posts have not been on topic at all, love, hate, they are the same emotion, stop using both to power the argument, accept that you were a little out of line, and go on with the topic...

Lets stop the pointless discussion of whether or not Krim's remarks are racist, they are out of line, whether or not he meant them to be, but mostly free speech make them an outburst of his ideas that we should consider. I personally think his troubling past and by that defined character coupled with psychological arousement from confrontation and argument fuel this argument. But unless both ya stop, i will have to do something i would really not want to... Sheesh, stop making me have look like a grown-up...

Back to topic, so what could have actually fueled the Holocaust, that hatred for everyone outside of yourself-like and total indifference for human suffering by those who could have, early in the days, have done something about this... We know of the man who was pushing this, the search for the altimate warrior, arian race, the "true" germans. But what made the masses indifferent for other human suffering, do you think that the opression and humiliation, sanctions and hunger after, in their recent memory WWI pushed these people to not see the wrongness of what they were doing?