General criticism of public school from a biology thread

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Moderation note: the first 17 post of this thread were moved from “Evolution Must Be Taught in Public Schools”, because they are not about the teaching of evolution, but discussion about general criticisms of public school

 

'Hey, looks like corn and tastes like candy! Sonofa..... ' Lewis Black.

 

I just spoke to my daughter last night who was finally talked into going back to school. She told me she's getting straight A's.

 

I asked her how much her school loans were. She said, 'about six thousand dollars'.

She's working at Herberger's part time and sharing a piss poor apartment with other young folks her own age. She can't afford a place of her own. She was all happy that her friend got her car running again.

 

I almost threw up.

 

She wasn't home schooled like my other kids. She went back to 'public' school.

And now she has to make up for the 12 years that essentially amounted to trying to survive through all of the social bull that goes on in public school. Oh, she learned how to dress pretty and make friends but other than that she learned zip. Well, she's paying the price. As will 98% of all of the other kids she went to school with.

 

What a complete waste of time. 12 years with nothing to show for it except mounting debt that she'll pay off over the next 20 years.

 

And you guys are arguing over what should be taught in public school.

 

I don't want to be too much of a wet blanket but what makes you think any of the kids that are going there even give a ****? Why don't we talk about that? About the fact that whatever goes on in 'public school' results in kids worrying more about how they look that what they learn?

 

Why don't we talk about the unbelievable disconnect between what public school actually is and what we wish it was and pretend it is.

 

In my mind, public school is a false promise. It's wrong in every sense, in every way, and it literally destroys 15% of the life of every child subjected to it. Oh the exceptions are there and they allow all of you to maintain the idea that it isn't bullshit, and you can spin it as you will and make it meaningful and that it works.

 

It doesn't. It still tastes like candy corn.

 

I am so disgusted with all of us, myself included, that I want to puke. What have we allowed to happen people? And am I the only one angry about it?

[Pyrotex]

...I am so disgusted with all of us, myself included, that I want to puke. What have we allowed to happen people? And am I the only one angry about it?

uhhh...

not any more.

When I talk to teenagers, they actually seem proud that they've managed to avoid learning anything. The sentence, "I'm not good at math" has become a badge of honor.

 

:evil:

[Moontanman]

Hmmm, both my sons went to public school, by trying hard and with a little native intelligence and support from me they did quite well. The oldest is now studying to teach government on the college level and the youngest is a JR at Carolina and on the Deans list. It would have been easy to simply not try and blame the schools but they didn't and neither did I. I went to PTA meetings participated in the system to make sure reality was taught in our schools and it worked quite well. My youngest is an exchange student in Tuebingen Germany this spring and summer. He has told me that home schooled students are a joke. Most of the time they can't find their *** in the dark with a flash light, they seldom are prepared for College and have to get considerable remedial tutoring. Most of them seem to think that proselytizing is more important than learning. I think you take away from public schools what you want, if you want to do nothing but party and slide by you can. But if you are serious and the classes are available because the parents insist on real knowledge being taught the kids can come away with a great education. You get out of it what you put in.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Hmmm, both my sons went to public school, by trying hard and with a little native intelligence and support from me they did quite well. The oldest is now studying to teach government on the college level and the youngest is a JR at Carolina and on the Deans list. It would have been easy to simply not try and blame the schools but they didn't and neither did I. I went to PTA meetings participated in the system to make sure reality was taught in our schools and it worked quite well. My youngest is an exchange student in Tuebingen Germany this spring and summer. He has told me that home schooled students are a joke. Most of the time they can't find their *** in the dark with a flash light, they seldom are prepared for College and have to get considerable remedial tutoring. Most of them seem to think that proselytizing is more important than learning. I think you take away from public schools what you want, if you want to do nothing but party and slide by you can. But if you are serious and the classes are available because the parents insist on real knowledge being taught the kids can come away with a great education. You get out of it what you put in.

 

And you should be proud of what you have stressed to them and proud of them for being intelligent enough to take something away from the system (but truthfully, they didn't. They took something away from you because you are a thinking adult and stress ideas at home. I proved that myself with my first two children. They had NO curriculum. All they had to do was read. The oldest is currently working on her masters in music at the U of Mn., the next is working on his doctorate in physics and math at Indiana. My point, as long as they are exposed to logical thought, they'll do fine. Amazing, but true.) But see, we're talking about a system which is supposed to teach them while we're working our asses off paying the taxes to pay for those new buildings, sports programs, etc. And now the failures of their learning should be placed on them and the parents? I accept the blame for my kids to the extent it is rightfully mine.

 

Why don't they learn to love learning in school?

 

It's easy to say it's a matter of family and native intelligence but Montessori proved a long time ago that all kids have the ability to learn and if it's done properly the kids will all act like geniuses and they'll actually turn their hovels into little heavens.

 

When the school system has them for 8 hours a day for 12 years, that's a lot of time spent in that system.

 

Now you say that I should insist on real knowledge being taught..... And that implies that I'm still responsible for what the system is teaching, hence this particular 'argument' about evolution, etc. But, a system, which the schools system is (by definition) should be responsible for something. So what is it, exactly? What is its feedback mechanism that keeps it current and keeps it rational (and whose definition should we use?)? How does that 'system' function anyway?

 

Get involved with the PTA? That's strictly a make believe, pretend process whose main goal is to pass time. Your kids are only in one school for 3 or 4 years. By the time any concepts you'd like to implement would happen they're out of there and on to another mess. It's a con of a different nature. And it's set up that way on purpose. No way can you have an effect.

 

As a property owner I'm paying for it whether or not I have children in it. And I'll pay for my whole life and as each year goes by I'll pay more and more and own my property less and less. So, after all that, what exactly is the benefit I'm getting? When and how did it happen that we agreed we'd rent our own property?

 

And the accountability, as you so eloquently implied, is mine and my childrens. And I couldn't agree more. But where is the schools system's accountability? What am I paying all that money for anyway? If the blame is going to be put on me and mine, what happened to the 12 x 8 x # of days per year block of life?

 

But I understand how this works so I'll shut up. We don't want the factory workers to have to learn more than they need to, just enough to read the signs that tell them which side of the line to stay on, where the bathrooms are, etc. And if they need to read, just well enough to make sure they don't punch in on the wrong timesheeet. I suspect that the common folk think the school system is a hell of alot more than it really, really is. But they're used to getting screwed anyway so who cares? At least it baby sits their kids for them during the day.

 

What a friggin mess. But what did we expect when we handed over the education of our kids to the government?

 

I wonder if my daughter qualifies for a bailout.

[Buffy]

Well, I've given up a comfortable retirement to afford housing in a "top" public school district, but I pulled her out of private school that cost $20k per year when we moved, and public school is quite frankly much better. Sure there are more slackers here who will fall off the bottom of the scale, but she's having a great time and actually learning exactly what she needs to succeed in a top college too.

 

Oh, and she *loves* math!

 

All I'm hoping now is that she continues to want to go to UCLA rather than Stanford, because otherwise I'll have to forget about retirement completely....

 

I'm glad I'm able to afford this because obviously what happens to kids is entirely based on the school and has nothing to do with parenting.

 

Moving back on topic though: it's also been my experience that school districts where there is any pressure to stifle Evolution consider the quality of teaching of *all* subjects to be secondary in importance. In our district, there are a lot of McCain voters but not even a whisper about Evolution: they're more interested in making sure their kids get into Cal or Stanford....

 

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education, :hihi:

Buffy

[Moontanman]

And you should be proud of what you have stressed to them and proud of them for being intelligent enough to take something away from the system (but truthfully, they didn't. They took something away from you because you are a thinking adult and stress ideas at home. I proved that myself with my first two children. They had NO curriculum. All they had to do was read. The oldest is currently working on her masters in music at the U of Mn., the next is working on his doctorate in physics and math at Indiana. My point, as long as they are exposed to logical thought, they'll do fine. Amazing, but true.) But see, we're talking about a system which is supposed to teach them while we're working our asses off paying the taxes to pay for those new buildings, sports programs, etc. And now the failures of their learning should be placed on them and the parents? I accept the blame for my kids to the extent it is rightfully mine.

 

No I don't think you do and I'll explain why.

 

Why don't they learn to love learning in school?

 

It's not the job of school to teach kids to love learning, it's great if they do but that's our job as parents.

 

It's easy to say it's a matter of family and native intelligence but Montessori proved a long time ago that all kids have the ability to learn and if it's done properly the kids will all act like geniuses and they'll actually turn their hovels into little heavens.

 

And you think the schools are responsible for this? You don' think that indifferent parents that shirk their responsibility to their kids, fail to teach their kids basic values, fail to give their kids guidance, ignore and shove their kids off on the school system so the parents can pursue their own selfish life styles do not hold any responsibility? parents who do nothing but feed (and not always that) their kids and send them to school, never participate in over seeing their schools or the curriculum of the schools do not deserve credit for the failure of the child to learn?

 

When the school system has them for 8 hours a day for 12 years, that's a lot of time spent in that system.

 

Yes but the parents have the opportunity to spend a much higher quality of time by being a good example, by showing the value of knowledge, by taking control of what their kids do in their off hours instead of just wanting them out from under foot. parents have been found to have a much greater influence on children than even the parents know, what we do is much more important than what we say. Summer and weekends of being ignored by their parents and shoved off on the TV and the street do not allow the schools much of a chance to keep kids interested in learning.

 

 

Now you say that I should insist on real knowledge being taught..... And that implies that I'm still responsible for what the system is teaching, hence this particular 'argument' about evolution, etc. But, a system, which the schools system is (by definition) should be responsible for something. So what is it, exactly? What is its feedback mechanism that keeps it current and keeps it rational (and whose definition should we use?)? How does that 'system' function anyway?

 

 

You attend school board meetings, make sure their feet are held to the fire by someone other than a person who is more worried his little darling might hear about birth control than he is about real knowledge. You make sure your voice is heard, gather together like minded people, have meetings attend the PTA as a group make sure your voices are heard, for too often the only people doing this are not worried about anything bearing taught other than Sunday school. Make sure you let them know that you want reality taught, let the Churches teach about god, let the schools teach math, science, social studies, and language. If parents taught the basics of how to behave at home instead of sending their kids to school to learn to behave half the battle would be won.

 

 

Get involved with the PTA? That's strictly a make believe, pretend process whose main goal is to pass time. Your kids are only in one school for 3 or 4 years. By the time any concepts you'd like to implement would happen they're out of there and on to another mess. It's a con of a different nature. And it's set up that way on purpose. No way can you have an effect.

 

That is so wrong I cannot even understand how you got that idea, the PTA is powerful! And 3 or 4 years? I was involved with my children's schools from preK to grade 12, I volunteered, made sure the teacher knew i was interested, gave the teacher support in what ever way they needed. Chaperon class trips, read to the kids, spend the most valuable of all currency, your time!

 

As a property owner I'm paying for it whether or not I have children in it. And I'll pay for my whole life and as each year goes by I'll pay more and more and own my property less and less. So, after all that, what exactly is the benefit I'm getting? When and how did it happen that we agreed we'd rent our own property?

 

As a property owner you are paying for your government, it the only way the government can make money. If it's not being spent wisely it's your fault fro not being involved. believe it or not the few hundred dollars a year you pay in school taxes do not even come close to covering what the schools need. It's sad but true, I honestly don't know how it got that way but i suspect it has to do with people who whine and cry about their taxes but want premium services and the schools suffer because they are the easiest place to cut. Fewer people complain when class sizes become to big but if taxes go up a half a percent they cry like fire is being shoved up their ***.

 

And the accountability, as you so eloquently implied, is mine and my childrens. And I couldn't agree more. But where is the schools system's accountability? What am I paying all that money for anyway? If the blame is going to be put on me and mine, what happened to the 12 x 8 x # of days per year block of life?

 

The school system is only as good as the people who over see it. when the public stops ignoring it and stop allowing people who only want to save money to over see it you will get better schools, the schools accountability is ours, the schools are ours, we ignore them at the peril of our children.

 

But I understand how this works so I'll shut up. We don't want the factory workers to have to learn more than they need to, just enough to read the signs that tell them which side of the line to stay on, where the bathrooms are, etc. And if they need to read, just well enough to make sure they don't punch in on the wrong timesheeet. I suspect that the common folk think the school system is a hell of alot more than it really, really is. But they're used to getting screwed anyway so who cares? At least it baby sits their kids for them during the day.

 

Yup that the attitude that has gotten us where we are.

 

What a friggin mess. But what did we expect when we handed over the education of our kids to the government?

 

Yeah, it's always the fault of the government, but who is the government? Oh yeah , it's those other nasty guys, the ones we think are sending everything to hell in a hand basket. WHEN IS COMES THE LOCAL LEVEL WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE REAL POTENTIAL FOR REAL CONTROL, IT'S WHY THINGS ARE SO F**KED UP NOW. BECAUSE THE LOCAL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CONTROL ONLY WANT TO CONTROL. WE CAN CHANGE THIS BY TAKING RESPONSIBILITY! we might not be able to do much about what the feds do or even much of the state but the local government is small enough to be influenced at least. if your school system is in control of people who do not give you the services you want take control of it, spend the time it takes to make sure the people in control know what you want, if not put other people in control. It works quickly on a local level.

 

I wonder if my daughter qualifies for a bailout.

 

I don't know is she a greedy neocon controled corporation?

[pamela]

Quote:

Why don't they learn to love learning in school

?

 

It's not the job of school to teach kids to love learning, it's great if they do but that's our job as parents.

A good teacher will instill a love of learning for the students and make it fun to learn. I had great teachers when i was growing up, but i find a very different type of teacher who has taught my sons.

Not good at all....

 

Quote:

It's easy to say it's a matter of family and native intelligence but Montessori proved a long time ago that all kids have the ability to learn and if it's done properly the kids will all act like geniuses and they'll actually turn their hovels into little heavens.

And you think the schools are responsible for this? You don' think that indifferent parents that shirk their responsibility to their kids, fail to teach their kids basic values, fail to give their kids guidance, ignore and shove their kids off on the school system so the parents can pursue their own selfish life styles do not hold any responsibility? parents who do nothing but feed (and not always that) their kids and send them to school, never participate in over seeing their schools or the curriculum of the schools do not deserve credit for the failure of the child to learn?

Parents obviously need to stay on top of the learning process, but the teachers better do their part. Our children are being influenced by them for several hours a day

 

You attend school board meetings, make sure their feet are held to the fire by someone other than a person who is more worried his little darling might hear about birth control than he is about real knowledge. You make sure your voice is heard, gather together like minded people, have meetings attend the PTA as a group make sure your voices are heard, for too often the only people doing this are not worried about anything bearing taught other than Sunday school. Make sure you let them know that you want reality taught, let the Churches teach about god, let the schools teach math, science, social studies, and language. If parents taught the basics of how to behave at home instead of sending their kids to school to learn to behave half the battle would be won

attending meetings does not equal change, but your voice can be heard

 

That is so wrong I cannot even understand how you got that idea, the PTA is powerful! And 3 or 4 years? I was involved with my children's schools from preK to grade 12, I volunteered, made sure the teacher knew i was interested, gave the teacher support in what ever way they needed. Chaperon class trips, read to the kids, spend the most valuable of all currency, your time

maybe your PTA was something great, but ours was always about fundraisers that never amounted to anything but BS

 

I don't know is she a greedy neocon controled corporation?

that comment was uncalled for

 

Being a parent of a child with a disability, i have had to face more challenges than most. I am totally disgusted with the lack of enthusiasm the teachers have in teaching my children. I have always done the majority of the teaching as it was obvious that my boys were deriving squat from school. Being an avid reader and studying and researching constantly, i have instilled that love of learning to them. I have pulled my youngest son out of the system as of last Thursday.

and just for the record i am teaching him evolution

[Moontanman]

That comment was uncalled for? so was his insinuation that some how the Liberal bail out was responsible for the problems we have. Apathy is the problem, it's people who sit around wanting someone else to do what needs to be done. it's sitting around saying "well I can't do anything because the Liberals are screwing everything up or the Conservatives are screwing everything up. We have to get out and try, make noise, it's quite true the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Pamela I know you don't sit back allow your self to be dictated to, i know you don't expect the schools to do the job while you sit back and eat bon bons. Who ever makes the most noise will get the most attention, who ever prepares his kids the best will be the kids who gets the most from school. i never expected the schools to do this for me, it was great when my boys had great teachers but i didn't allow the bad teachers to be an excuse for me to sit back and blame someone else. i took the intuitive and made sure my kids got what they needed. Was it difficult, damn right is was, did it cut into my personal time, damn right it did but ultimately my kids were worth it. Is it more difficult when the school system is defunct, damn right it is but you don't let that be an excuse to whine about the schools, you do something about it. Does it always work out the way you want or it should of course not but if you don't try it will never work out. i know you take the bull by the horns Pamela, if everyone did then the schools would be a much better system, not perfect, but much better. PTA's can be BS if you allow it but sometimes you have to take control of that too. don't like what th PTA does? Organize it, run for office, organize people, don't allow apathy to kill the PTA. We used the PTA to get special classes instated to gifted children, used th PTA to make sure grades were more important than who the kids parents were to be allowed in special classes. Was it easy? no it wasn't but sometimes you have to do what is not easy. does it work out in the 3 or 4 years a kid is in one school no but your influence can be felt for more than 4 years. The programs we helped put through were not started by the parents of the kids who enjoyed the first benefits. It was ultimately the "great" teachers who promoted these things at first and the parents that backed them that got these things done. It takes time but to limit your efforts to programs that only your kids can benefit from are selfish and short sighted, yet another reason our school systems are so bad off. We have to care about children to be as well and the children who are.

[pamela]

Pamela I know you don't sit back allow your self to be dictated to, i know you don't expect the schools to do the job while you sit back and eat bon bons

true i do not, but i do like bonbons;)

 

Who ever makes the most noise will get the most attention, who ever prepares his kids the best will be the kids who gets the most from school.

trust me, they have heard my mouth across this entire state

i never expected the schools to do this for me, it was great when my boys had great teachers but i didn't allow the bad teachers to be an excuse for me to sit back and blame someone else. i took the intuitive and made sure my kids got what they needed. Was it difficult, damn right is was, did it cut into my personal time, damn right it did but ultimately my kids were worth it.

I have taken the initiative and have literally fought the system. You cannot image the war i was in to move my child to a new school, because all he was being taught was how to color and sing songs in the SECOND GRADE

Does it always work out the way you want or it should of course not but if you don't try it will never work out. i

wanna bet? My child, my choice, he will learn EVERYTHING and be successful in adulthood despite the idifrickenotic label of educably mentally disabled( and yes, i coined that word)

Look, i have been at this for years now. IEP meetings, school board, teacher conferences, etc. Nothing changes, even when they concede to my demands for change in his curriculuum, its only lipservice. I am fed up as you can tell. I alone cannot change the system, not even for my own child. I will teach him as i always have and will add to what i may have missed.

[Moontanman]

Pamela, if anyone can wring something good out of the system i am sure it will be you.

[pamela]

Pamela, if anyone can wring something good out of the system i am sure it will be you.

well how could i go wrong when i have such a great support system as you;)

back on topic- they do not teach evolution at his school but they do offer Bible History as an elective. I find this interesting as they flat refused to teach him multiplication but THEY chose this elective for him and deemed it more important

[Moontanman]

I honestly have no problem with Bible History being an elective but I have to wonder if this is not a thinning of already limited resources for something that is not really necessary education. I would much rather see money spent on music (which has been shown to increase things like math scores) or even athletics.

 

This another example of the squeaky wheel getting the grease. In some areas the only people who seem to care about what is being taught in school are those that think that religion or some part there of is more important than a real education. these people use the problems seen in schools as an excuse to promote a religious agenda. often the idea is that putting God in the class room will make everything ok.

 

The real problem is often lack of parenting and lack of funds for more programs that really help with educating children. many of these people cannot get their kids to go to Church so they want to teach religion in school where the government makes their children go. It's sad the children are the real victims of this type of thinking.

 

This problem is also self perpetuating, children of these schools emerge with much less that the necessary skills to support and raise their own kids and then turn to the false promises of religion to get help for their kids and so it goes on and on. Religion is not a bad thing necessarily but when it interferes with the education of children and in so doing causes an under class of people who are caught in a downward spiral of lower expectations and substandard education it's real evil.

 

One problem with this is that the people who are promoting the less than standard education think they are doing a good thing. They truly believe they are helping by injecting God to replace education and in do so cause the very conditions they are trying to stop.

[pamela]

well my point is that their priorities are definitely not in order. I guess i could see Bible History as an elective in High School, but in middle school? i dunno. Remember, this child has an individualized education plan, that SHOULD include multiplication. He also plays guitar, but they will NOT let him take part in music electives.

[Moontanman]

I agree completely, their priorities make no sense at all, again I think it's the get religion in at any cost people who are to blame. To some people religion has become more important than anything, the need to get that after death benefit and make sure everyone else gets is it too is really a problem when it's comes into conflict with reality.

I have often suspected there is a deeper problem of some people profiting from keeping others in a position of being exploitable that supports the religion at any cost crowd but it's subtle if true.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

I don't like badly designed systems. They are hard to change and improve. Consequently I don't like wasting my time fighting for the sake of fighting with no end in sight except more fighting. You say I should jump in there and yell until I get my way? Sorry, but that's stupid. Unless the outcome is based upon some sort of logic, some sort of predefined set of goals where it isn't just a form of mass hysteria that drives it, I refuse to participate. And if it is designed for a species not human, I refuse to participate also. If no attempt is made to take into account the nature of man, I refuse to participate.

 

What really constitutes a good education anyway? Why is it needed? This is another one of those things that we take for granted as an absolute truth or universal value. And I absolutely defy you to explain what a good education means.

 

To be educated does not mean able to survive. It does not mean intelligent. It does not mean good. In our society today, which you and I see from diametric positions, moontanman, I see a herd being inoculated with what someone has deemed appropriate to their mental well being. At least that's what is behind the pretense. I have proven that there isn't anything there that can't be achieved by simple reading and a lot less cost and stress.

 

Childhood should be an exciting time of preparation and skills accumulation. It isn't. We've turned it into a systematic, tortuous drudge that accomplishes the destruction of interest and intellectual excitement.

 

And anyone who thinks they know what all children should be learning and when they should be learning it - is deluded. Only the kids know that and only the kids should choose. But our 'system' is not set up that way. It is fundamentally wrong headed.

 

Teachers 'teach' and students just sit there and think about other things and ask themselves 'Why do I have to learn this ****, I'll never use it?'. And truthfully, they never will.

 

And after 'graduation'? They're too busy trying to figure out how they're going to fix their car or pay the exhorbitantly high rent being charged to pay for the property taxes that pays for the schools that don't teach them what they need to know to survive. That they get to take loans out for and pay for over the next 20 years if they decide to 'continue their education'. And if you don't think something is wrong with that, well, I guess I've said all I can.

 

And as for deciding what is best to teach, creation or evolution, don't you see that each of us has to make that determination ourselves? Let the kids decide what they think is correct. I happen to think that both are wrong but that is beside the point. I don't presume to think I should decide what anyone should be exposed to since almost any subject other than mathematics is subjective at best. But still we delude ourselves thinking that we know and so we choose for them and steal that chance for them to grow.

 

My view of man is quite different than yours. moontanman. Maybe we should leave it at that.

[Moontanman]

I can always agree to disagree when it's not important but in this case I think it is vitally important. You blame government, i blame the people. You blame waste and misspending of money i blame apathy and lack of responsibility of parents. of course not all parents are irresponsible but i see in local school a great many people who seem to think the schools are responsible for teaching their children how to be human. They send kids that are barely more than wild animals to school and get much pissed when someone corrects them and turn around and blame the schools for not teaching their kids how to behave. If you think schools get too much money then you are far removed from the problem. Schools should not have to beg and scramble for funds to give a basic education. Funds should not be squandered teaching religion and time should not have to be spend teaching children how to be human beings. If you know of a third option between creationism and evolution i would be very interested in hearing it. But the fact is that schools should not teach religion, no two of any three people can agree on what the correct religion is to start with. I agree it is very frustrating and intimidating to try and change the system but not to try will doom our society. We cannot depend on everyone getting the life knowledge they need to survive as adults, it should be obvious education is failing many people now and the failure is growing on it's self. What we do now could determine the direction of the our future.

[Moontanman]

BTW I am not talking about attending school board meetings, standing on table and making an *** out of yourself. just being there and speaking up can make a difference. as things stand now far to many people with 14 kids and a Marlboro hanging out of their mouth are there telling the school board they are responsible for their little darling being crack head because they wouldn't teach religion in school.