Language and its influence on thought

[une etudiante]

http://reslib.com/book/Language_in_Mind__Advances_in_the_Study_of_Language_and_Thought

[une etudiante]

http://reslib.com/book/Language_in_Mind__Advances_in_the_Study_of_Language_and_Thought

this was a book about it)

[sigurdV]

"Thinking" involves, at even the most primitive level, the assignment of "meaning" to a memory. And meaning is constructed entirely out of the elements of language

 

Hi Pyrotex!

 

I think you are simplifying things, there should be (I think you call them "semantons") even in minds not yet having elements of language... where else would they evolve from?

[SaxonViolence]

No one has mentioned the Whorf-Sapir effect.

 

Its been awhile, but I think that it was Sapir who studied the Hopi Language extensively.

 

We have Three "Tenses": Past, Present and Future.

 

The Hopi divide time into what Sapir found it convienient to call "Manifest" and "Unmanifest":

 

The Past is "Manifest" and so is the Present. To the Hopi, the Present literally does not exist.

 

He would argue that by the time that you've perceived it, and can think or talk about it, it is already in the Past--Recent Past, but still Past.

 

There is no way that you can slice an instant of time thin enough to get a "Present" in the Hopi mind.

 

"Unmanifest" includes the Future, of course, but it also includes Dreams, Visions, Myths and Legends.

 

I asked my Anthropology Professor if a Hopi could call a Peer a liar by repeating something the peer Said in the "Manifest" Tense in the "Unmanifest" Tense.

 

He was delighted by the question, but didn't know.

 

You can also think of their two tenses as "It has come to pass" and "It has not come to pass".

 

That's all I know about Hopi, but many knowledgeable people say that if we spoke Hopi instead of English, that many explanations of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics would seem far less Paradoxical to us.

 

In Ancient Hebrew, the Idea of Prophesy is so important to them, that they have a special tense for Prophecies--Amounting to: While it lies ahead on the Timeline, for all practical purposes, its a done deal.

 

We don't have different terms for male or female cousins, nor do we distinguish between Parallel and Cross-Cousins, but its an important distinction in many cultures. In most of them, Cross-Cousins are allowed--sometimes even encouraged to marry, but Parallel Cousins are strictly off limits.

 

{A Parallel-Cousin is your father's brother's child, or your mother's sister's child. A Cross-Cousin will be the child of a mother's brother or a father's sister. In small villages, where the women go to live in the husband's village, Cross-Cousins will be in another village--the one where the woman's brother still resides. Your parallel Cousin is probably still in your own village.

 

Marrying Cross-Cousins keeps the Villages exchanging personnel--which cuts down on inbreeding, and solidifies Tribal bonds. One is less likely to war with one's kinfolk, unless there is outrageous profit or provocation involved.....}

 

Oddly, the same cultures who stress the difference between Parallel and Cross-Cousins are often the same ones who make one word do double duty for both "Uncle" and "Father". They know the difference--just like we know the difference between a Boy Cousin and a Girl Cousin (Most of the time)--they just don't have two words.

 

And this is an excellent indication that all the Male relatives are pretty equally responsible for training and socializing all the children in their village.

 

Alfred Korzybski? I think the current opinion is that the man made a few valid points, was demonstrably wrong about some others, and made far too sweeping generalizations from his Data.

 

I have only heard the name of Noam Chomsky. I'll have to read him soon.

 

Attaining "Zen-Mind" in the Martial Arts--as I understand it.....

 

Verbalization is our primary means of Cogitation, but it is far too slow to run a boxing match with.....

 

Yet many intellectuals insist, in the privacy of their own mind, of verbalizing the Client's Moves and their responses.

 

This makes them very clumsy and slow.

 

If I threw you a towel as you stepped out of a pool, you wouldn't check your stance, and give yourself even a ten or fifteen word tutorial/pep talk.

 

You would simply react.

 

Being able to fight, draw, dance or make love well, is being able to derail the Verbal Machinery for awhile, and then simply react--either as you were trained, or as the spirit of the moment moves you.

 

Much Complex Music--Blues, Jazz, Classical, Improvisational Bluegrass.....

 

The Guitar, Piano, Trumpet or Fiddle is speaking a language--it has its own grammar, syntax, and vocabulary.....

 

But it is an entirely Abstract Language with no concrete references.

 

You can't Verbalize it--You simply have to experience it.

 

All non-musicians can do, is to listen--and even to hear with the proper nuances requires some experience.

 

A fellow musician can respond--as a fellow jam partner, or in some sort of "Dueling Banjoes".

 

Did I say that there are no concrete referents--well, a given chord heard by a musician who can play that instrument, tells him a certain set of finger positions.....

 

But the finger positions have meaning only in relation to the sound that will result.

 

Want to think long and hard about a Paradox? Improvisational Rapping by Artists who stick fairly closely to Iambic Pentameter.....

 

One more thing--you very seldom see them anymore, but when I was a boy, I was fortunate enough to meet some old Deaf-Mutes who either had never been taught Sign Language, Lip Reading or Regular reading.....

 

Or they didn't learn one or all until well past Puberty.

 

Nowadays, they catch most of them very early on.

 

Have you ever watched Harpo Marx? His routine was a very good approximation of how the old-time deaf-mutes--or simply mutes--acted.

 

A lot of over-the-top Charades, a tendency to joke often, smile or laugh frequently, and to mild to a little more than mild grab-assing.

 

I'm not making fun--but these fellows, on the whole--were socialized in a way that no animal ever could be.....

 

Some of them could drive--practice crafts.....

 

But you did get the idea that the lack of readily available cognitive tools kinda left their higher intellect unstimulated.

 

But even if I was wrong, how would I ask them--and how would they answer?

 

Saxon Violence

[une etudiante]

No one has mentioned the Whorf-Sapir effect.

 

Its been awhile, but I think that it was Sapir who studied the Hopi Language extensively.

 

We have Three "Tenses": Past, Present and Future.

 

The Hopi divide time into what Sapir found it convienient to call "Manifest" and "Unmanifest":

 

The Past is "Manifest" and so is the Present. To the Hopi, the Present literally does not exist.

 

He would argue that by the time that you've perceived it, and can think or talk about it, it is already in the Past--Recent Past, but still Past.

 

There is no way that you can slice an instant of time thin enough to get a "Present" in the Hopi mind.

 

"Unmanifest" includes the Future, of course, but it also includes Dreams, Visions, Myths and Legends.

 

I asked my Anthropology Professor if a Hopi could call a Peer a liar by repeating something the peer Said in the "Manifest" Tense in the "Unmanifest" Tense.

 

He was delighted by the question, but didn't know.

 

You can also think of their two tenses as "It has come to pass" and "It has not come to pass".

 

That's all I know about Hopi, but many knowledgeable people say that if we spoke Hopi instead of English, that many explanations of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics would seem far less Paradoxical to us.

 

In Ancient Hebrew, the Idea of Prophesy is so important to them, that they have a special tense for Prophecies--Amounting to: While it lies ahead on the Timeline, for all practical purposes, its a done deal.

 

We don't have different terms for male or female cousins, nor do we distinguish between Parallel and Cross-Cousins, but its an important distinction in many cultures. In most of them, Cross-Cousins are allowed--sometimes even encouraged to marry, but Parallel Cousins are strictly off limits.

 

{A Parallel-Cousin is your father's brother's child, or your mother's sister's child. A Cross-Cousin will be the child of a mother's brother or a father's sister. In small villages, where the women go to live in the husband's village, Cross-Cousins will be in another village--the one where the woman's brother still resides. Your parallel Cousin is probably still in your own village.

 

Marrying Cross-Cousins keeps the Villages exchanging personnel--which cuts down on inbreeding, and solidifies Tribal bonds. One is less likely to war with one's kinfolk, unless there is outrageous profit or provocation involved.....}

 

Oddly, the same cultures who stress the difference between Parallel and Cross-Cousins are often the same ones who make one word do double duty for both "Uncle" and "Father". They know the difference--just like we know the difference between a Boy Cousin and a Girl Cousin (Most of the time)--they just don't have two words.

 

And this is an excellent indication that all the Male relatives are pretty equally responsible for training and socializing all the children in their village.

 

Alfred Korzybski? I think the current opinion is that the man made a few valid points, was demonstrably wrong about some others, and made far too sweeping generalizations from his Data.

 

I have only heard the name of Noam Chomsky. I'll have to read him soon.

 

Attaining "Zen-Mind" in the Martial Arts--as I understand it.....

 

Verbalization is our primary means of Cogitation, but it is far too slow to run a boxing match with.....

 

Yet many intellectuals insist, in the privacy of their own mind, of verbalizing the Client's Moves and their responses.

 

This makes them very clumsy and slow.

 

If I threw you a towel as you stepped out of a pool, you wouldn't check your stance, and give yourself even a ten or fifteen word tutorial/pep talk.

 

You would simply react.

 

Being able to fight, draw, dance or make love well, is being able to derail the Verbal Machinery for awhile, and then simply react--either as you were trained, or as the spirit of the moment moves you.

 

Much Complex Music--Blues, Jazz, Classical, Improvisational Bluegrass.....

 

The Guitar, Piano, Trumpet or Fiddle is speaking a language--it has its own grammar, syntax, and vocabulary.....

 

But it is an entirely Abstract Language with no concrete references.

 

You can't Verbalize it--You simply have to experience it.

 

All non-musicians can do, is to listen--and even to hear with the proper nuances requires some experience.

 

A fellow musician can respond--as a fellow jam partner, or in some sort of "Dueling Banjoes".

 

Did I say that there are no concrete referents--well, a given chord heard by a musician who can play that instrument, tells him a certain set of finger positions.....

 

But the finger positions have meaning only in relation to the sound that will result.

 

Want to think long and hard about a Paradox? Improvisational Rapping by Artists who stick fairly closely to Iambic Pentameter.....

 

One more thing--you very seldom see them anymore, but when I was a boy, I was fortunate enough to meet some old Deaf-Mutes who either had never been taught Sign Language, Lip Reading or Regular reading.....

 

Or they didn't learn one or all until well past Puberty.

 

Nowadays, they catch most of them very early on.

 

Have you ever watched Harpo Marx? His routine was a very good approximation of how the old-time deaf-mutes--or simply mutes--acted.

 

A lot of over-the-top Charades, a tendency to joke often, smile or laugh frequently, and to mild to a little more than mild grab-assing.

 

I'm not making fun--but these fellows, on the whole--were socialized in a way that no animal ever could be.....

 

Some of them could drive--practice crafts.....

 

But you did get the idea that the lack of readily available cognitive tools kinda left their higher intellect unstimulated.

 

But even if I was wrong, how would I ask them--and how would they answer?

 

Saxon Violence

 

Which book of Chomsky will you read?

 

http://reslib.com/book/Language_and_mind#1

 

http://reslib.com/book/Language_and_problems_of_knowledge__The_Managua_lectures#1

 

there are also some curious Chomsky's books in this library...

[une etudiante]

And this is an original book of Sapir!!!

I had also heard about it)))

http://reslib.com/book/The_Status_of_Linguistics_as_a_Science#1

[sigurdV]

 

 

We have Three "Tenses": Past, Present and Future.

 

The Hopi divide time into what Sapir found it convienient to call "Manifest" and "Unmanifest":

 

The Past is "Manifest" and so is the Present. To the Hopi, the Present literally does not exist.

 

He would argue that by the time that you've perceived it, and can think or talk about it, it is already in the Past--Recent Past, but still Past.

 

There is no way that you can slice an instant of time thin enough to get a "Present" in the Hopi mind.

 

"Unmanifest" includes the Future, of course, but it also includes Dreams, Visions, Myths and Legends.

 

You can also think of their two tenses as "It has come to pass" and "It has not come to pass".

 

In Ancient Hebrew, the Idea of Prophesy is so important to them, that they have a special tense for Prophecies--Amounting to: While it lies ahead on the Timeline, for all practical purposes, its a done deal.

 

Alfred Korzybski? I think the current opinion is that the man made a few valid points, was demonstrably wrong about some others, and made far too sweeping generalizations from his Data.

 

Much Complex Music--Blues, Jazz, Classical, Improvisational Bluegrass.....

 

The Guitar, Piano, Trumpet or Fiddle is speaking a language--it has its own grammar, syntax, and vocabulary.....

 

But it is an entirely Abstract Language with no concrete references.

 

You can't Verbalize it--You simply have to experience it.

 

All non-musicians can do, is to listen--and even to hear with the proper nuances requires some experience.

 

A fellow musician can respond--as a fellow jam partner, or in some sort of "Dueling Banjoes".

 

Did I say that there are no concrete referents--well, a given chord heard by a musician who can play that instrument, tells him a certain set of finger positions.....

 

But the finger positions have meaning only in relation to the sound that will result.

 

Want to think long and hard about a Paradox? Improvisational Rapping by Artists who stick fairly closely to Iambic Pentameter.....

 

There was lots of interesting things in the entry the quote comes from.

Personally i always thought only the past real since it remains (almost) the same while no present moments stays for inspection. And future moments are not determined untill they pass into the past.

 

However the different ways we divide reality in, does not change it in any way.

 

But...maybe... our mental maps makes us treat the moment differently...Perhaps my belief in the past prevents me doing some things i do not want to exist anywhere? If the past doesnt exist then why bother what actions we put in there?

 

The meaning of finger positions varies with the tuning of the strings.

Say: Tune d-string into c# makes the bar (index finger on all strings in the same fret) produce an unexpected, nicer sound...The EMinor11 of the normal tuning turns into AMajor nine.

 

I dont see the paradox hrmmm, maybe ill hear it?

 

Why dont you do a da capo ad lib?