The Dugger's 18 children and counting?

[Moontanman]

Recently there has been a lot of publicity around a family of people who now have 18 children, the last of which is a new born. The woman had one set of twins the rest were single births. The publicity surrounding these people and another family that has 16 kids has almost portrayed them as being the perfect family. The kids are home schooled and there grasp of the real world is limited by what the parents allow them to know and that is very limited. I think they are far from being the perfect family and are really an example of total control by a man over his wife and kids via using religion and limited access to the world and using religion as an excuse to do so. I think they are inexcusable and people like this are very bit as wrong as the unmarried woman who had eight kids in one pregnancy to add to her other six. It's on the same level of religion domination and horror that is being forced on the Mormon sect that allows one man to have several wives, often little girls, and each wife has several children. These instances for both the religious and non religious reasons are real criminal acts through which children are abused and neglected in ways that are difficult to condemn but are still real none the less.

[freeztar]

It's the overpopulation aspect that always gets me mad/sad when I hear these stories. :)

[CraigD]

Recently there has been a lot of publicity around a family of people who now have 18 children, the last of which is a new born.

…

These instances for both the religious and non religious reasons are real criminal acts through which children are abused and neglected in ways that are difficult to condemn but are still real none the less.

I don’t personally like or approve of the Duggars’ behavior, but accusing them of “real criminal acts” is an unsupported claim.

 

From a legal perspective, US law has a strongly affirmed precedent barring the state from controlling the reproductive behavior of consenting adults. The state simply cannot prohibit adults from having children, such as by fining, imprisoning, sterilizing, or barring health service providers from helping them (despite some characterizations of the Duggars as “relying on God” for their reproductive success, three of their 18 children were delivered by C-section, and, I assume, all with modern medical attention).

The kids are home schooled and there grasp of the real world is limited by what the parents allow them to know and that is very limited.

I don’t personally like or approve of religiously motivated home schooling. However, as long as parents like the Duggars comply with applicable laws addressing home schooling, they may legally do it.

 

In Arkansas, where the Duggars live, home schooling laws are very unrestrictive: the teacher need meet no requirements; no minimum number of hours a day or days a year need be met; no minimum collection of subjects need be taught; no specific books must be used; standardized tests must be administered to home schooled students, but they need not meet any minimum score. In short, if one properly notifies ones local school superintendent whom, what, and by whom, one can home school ones children. The state may use this information, and test results, only for statistical purposes. It may not be used to prohibit a student from being home schooled. (source Home Schooling in the United States: A Legal Analysis: Arkansas)

 

Despite my personal dislike and disapproval of the Duggars, I don’t think they or other’s with similar beliefs pose a significant risk to society, because they’re rare.

[Moontanman]

While "criminal acts" might be a less than real just because it's not illegal doesn't make it right. I can't imagine how anyone can justify allowing humans to be raised in this way to be legal in our day and age but if it is "technically" it is still not right. Be that as it may making these people the media darlings they have been portrayed as is also disturbing.

 

When the Mormon polygamist sects were being investigated they were not portrayed as good or their way of life celebrated. What they are doing is wrong from many stand points as is what is happening with the Duggers. Just because you have children doesn't make them your property. All children should be raised with some attempt at certain standards, teaching your children a distorted and wrong version of reality because it's what you want them to believe is not and should not be considered decent behavior.

 

If I wanted to raise my children to believe in fairies and elves that the world is run by magic, teach them the earth is flat, the sky is made of crystal spheres and give them no idea of reality is that ok? Children should be raised to exist in the real world not some distorted world of magical BS. Raising children in a cave, real or virtual is simply not something society should allow. I am not talking about religion per say, this goes far beyond religion, even religious teaching can still be a part of the real world, these kids are being given a view of reality that is simply wrong.

 

Nothing out side the view point of their parents is part of their reality and that view point is severely limited. Interviews of the children reveled a disturbing lack of knowledge about the real world or even being allowed to think in anyway contrary to the thoughts of what the parents wanted them to think, brainwashing in it's truest form. isolation from the world by these people is just as disturbing as the isolation of the polygamists recently in the news.

 

This not an isolated occurrence, it's just the number of children in this family that has brought it to the attention of the media, large numbers of children are being raised in this manner, it's wrong and should be stopped. The idea of 18 children is outrageous in light of the real world, but the real problem is the way those children are being raised and what they are being programed to think.

[pamela]

originally posted by Moon

The idea of 18 children is outrageous in light of the real world, but the real problem is the way those children are being raised and what they are being programed to think.

Why is 18 children an issue? is there not enough food, clothing , shelter? I have not followed this story, what specifically is the raising/programming issue that you have?

[Moontanman]

Why is 18 children an issue? is there not enough food, clothing , shelter? I have not followed this story, what specifically is the raising/programming issue that you have?

 

I have a problem with 18 children from the stand point of there already being a huge population problem in the world, even in the USA we really have too many people, yes we are not standing room only yet but do we really want to get to hat point and should we be glorifying people who reproduce in such a irresponsible manner?

 

Not only that but raising your children with little or no contact with or realization of the real world is also a problem. In this case the amount of control over the kids is really outrageous. I don't think i ever saw children being raised so much in control of their parents and isolated from reality that it wasn't considered toxic.

 

The polygamists were shown as toxic to their children even if nothing was done even though what they are doing is against the laws of the land. These "Dugger" people are being celebrated as ideal parents! They were shown with another group of 16 kids another family had and their values were bring touted as so moral and good. When is reality all they are is control freaks hiding behind relgion and what god wants. I think it's time to realize that just because some one lays claim to religion as a reason to do something doesn't make it right.

 

Raising children in a virtual cave isolated from reality in real and complete way is wrong, home schooling nothing but a tiny amount of religious knowledge is wrong, teach your religion if you want but the real world is still waiting out there and teaching children it doesn't exist is wrong. Not allowing contact with the real world to make sure they have no knowledge other than what you want them to know is wrong, it's brain washing.

 

Just because you're not teaching them to worship Hitler doesn't mean it's right. If this family was a bunch of neo-Nazis and teaching their kids that twisted version of reality everyone would be stepping a fetching like as bunch of idiots. But because they are teaching fundamentalist Christianity they are media darlings, it's BS of the highest stench possible.

[pamela]

well, its not like you can force population control, whether you think they have too many or not. Will you dictate what a parent has a right to teach their children? That is their choice and their belief and their decision to raise their offspring with their beliefs.You still have not cited examples of programming/raising issues.You have only stated your contempt for religion.

[Moontanman]

well, its not like you can force population control, whether you think they have too many or not.

 

I'm not advocating population control but glorifying such bad decisions is wrong.

 

Will you dictate what a parent has a right to teach their children? That is their choice and their belief and their decision to raise their offspring with their beliefs.

 

So if parents want to raise their children as Neo-Nazis, denigrating anyone who it not Aryan as sub human and advocating the killing of anyone who is not "white" it's ok? And glorifying this method of child rearing is ok as well?

 

You still have not cited examples of programming/raising issues.You have only stated your contempt for religion.

 

I stated in my posts I had no problem with teaching religion only teaching religion instead of anything else. These children can be taught anything and it's ok. I watched several hours of this family, the idea of children raising other children in the family because the parents really don't have the time to spend with them, limiting their exposure to reality is also disturbing.

 

Taken out of context the things being limited seem small but taken in the context of what was shown in the programs about these people and the way their actions were glorified it was very disturbing.

 

Possibly one telling example was the 20 year old son having his man to man talk with his father before getting married, he truly needed the talk because he had been so limited and controlled he had no idea of what to expect on his wedding night, he had never even dated or kissed a girl before his marriage, not even the girl he was marring, all the time he had spent with his girl friend was only in the company of his parents had never spent any time alone with her or any girl other than his mom and sisters.

 

His attitudes and view points were totally in line with and limited to only what his parents had allowed him to see and experience. That much control is scary to say the least but that is just an example of an over all pattern of complete control.

 

 

I raised two sons, I taught them to think for themselves, not what to think, I tried to teach them to think not how to think. I did my best not to preprogram them, the type of parenting shown by the duggers is horrifying to me on many levels.

[pamela]

originally posted by Moon

So if parents want to raise their children as Neo-Nazis, denigrating anyone who it not Aryan as sub human and advocating the killing of anyone who is not "white" it's ok? And glorifying this method of child rearing is ok as well?

reminiscent of a strawman......

What would you suggest? If there is endangerment to the child, then child services needs to step in. Whereas, I am not in agreement with the Duggers Quiverfull ideology nor am I in agreement with Neo Nazis, you cannot do anything about it, unless they break the law.

 

stated in my posts I had no problem with teaching religion only teaching religion instead of anything else. These children can be taught anything and it's ok. I watched several hours of this family, the idea of children raising other children in the family because the parents really don't have the time to spend with them, limiting their exposure to reality is also disturbing.

Older siblings helping/teaching younger ones is common pratice even in smaller households. Extended families have been doing this very thing for centuries. Not uncommon for a grandfather to raise his grandson;)

 

Possibly one telling example was the 20 year old son having his man to man talk with his father before getting married, he truly needed the talk because he had been so limited and controlled he had no idea of what to expect on his wedding night, he had never even dated or kissed a girl before his marriage, not even the girl he was marring, all the time he had spent with his girl friend was only in the company of his parents had never spent any time alone with her or any girl other than his mom and sisters.

This is common practice in several religions.

 

His attitudes and view points were totally in line with and limited to only what his parents had allowed him to see and experience. That much control is scary to say the least but that is just an example of an over all pattern of complete control

How do you know its control and not what the son has chosen to believe and there by put into practice.

 

I raised two sons, I taught them to think for themselves, not what to think, I tried to teach them to think not how to think. I did my best not to preprogram them, the type of parenting shown by the duggers is horrifying to me on many levels

I have raised my sons as free thinkers. I have also armed them with tools and information . All parents will exercise control to some degree. If my son fails to come home and spent the night somewhere without even so much as a phone call, then you bet, there will be control in the form of being grounded. Next time, he will have respect and courtesy for his mother and either call or come home.

[CraigD]

The issues raised by unusual behavior such as the Duggars’ presents, I think, a “lesser of several evils” dilemma, of more-or-less three parts:

1. I think we can assume a consensus of hypographers and our greater communities that uncontrolled reproduction, such as the Duggars’, is bad.
   
2. On the other hand, government control over individuals’ decisions, such as the decision to reproduce uncontrolledly, seems foolhardy, and, from an US Constitutional point of view, an intrusion of the rights reserved to individuals.
   
3. Non-government sanctioned means of stopping people from behaving like the Duggars, such as intervention by neighbors, seem lawless.

In this case, #1, uncontrolled reproduction, seems to me the least evil.

 

MoonTanMan raises a good concern, I think, about the Duggars’ 18 (and possibly more to come) children’s education and enculturation so poorly preparing them for life as to constitute child abuse and neglect. However, my personal, anecdotal experience is that some of the most skilled and open-minded people I know were raised in similar circumstances, while some of the most tragically superstitious people I’ve know were raised by very liberal parents and excellent schools. IMHO, while one’s upbringing influences ones beliefs, it doesn’t determine them. Practically, free will exists, even for the Duggars’ children.

 

As the husband of a former child protective social worker, my sense of what constitutes genuine abuse and neglect emphasizes physical support and safety over education and enculturation. Any parent who doesn’t kill or neglect a child to death is preferable to one who does. As the Duggars’ appear to protect and provide for their children well, my judgment of them is that they are, as a social worker would judge them, good parents.

 

Another concern is that, if everyone reproduced uncontrolledly, resource demands, primarily water and food, would be exceeded within a generation. However, the Duggars are rare, and unlikely, I think, to influence many people to adopt a similar lifestyle. Compared to such social issues as state legal systems that do not permit people to chose celibacy, contraception, or abortion, health education and care systems that don’t make contraception available, and economic systems that make many children a necessity for survival in old age, the Quiverful movement pales to insignificance.

[Guest trailmender]

According to the news, the Duggers from Arkansas, recently had their 19 child.

Had they adopted 19 children, instead of worsening the overpopulation problem by having all their own, it would have been reason for international attention and celebration.

One unfortunate outcome of this, is that other couples, may try to "copy cat" this family's reproductive behavior.

The scientific consensus is that 150-200 million people is the ideal population size for the US; which is about its size of 50 years ago.

The census shows the US has grown by about 83% in the last 50 years. This has led to more air pollution, energy and water shortages, soil erosion, urban sprawl, overcrowded schools and traffic congestion.

Thirty-Six states are projected to have water shortages by 2013. Arkansas is projected to be one of them.

While the US has about 5% of the world's population, we use 25% of the world's resources.

Reasonable legislation should be quickly enacted, both to help slow immigration and to prevent the reckless reproductive behavior of couples.

 

Sources for "statistics" related to "trailmender's" opinion/comments above are: http://www.npg.org and Internet search for "water projection shortages for 36 U.S. States".

[TheBigDog]

Welcome to Hypography trailmender!

 

You make some interesting claims. With claims comes a requirement for sourcing. Can you show me the scientific consensus that the US should have 150 - 200 million people? Or where 36 of the states will have water shortages by 2013?

 

I will forgive the whole copycat having 19 children thing as pure whimsy to get people to the remainder of your post. Do you know how much dedication and energy it takes to have that many kids?

 

Bill

[Guest trailmender]

To The Big Dog:

Here are my sources of information.

 

Concerning overpopulation:

Negative Population Growth

 

Concerning water shortages:

Go to your home page and type in "Water projection shortages for 36 US states.

[BrianG]

I find something admirable in large families, the efficiency of one couple caring for so many children and the community of a extended family. When I was a kid, I thought we would have over nine billion people in the world by now, where are they? Less than 10% of the land in the USA is developed, it's not like there isn't enough room.

 

What percentage of land in the United States is developed (both including & excluding Alaska)?

[Guest trailmender]

Go to NPG.org to "frequently asked questions".

There is good info. there.

[TheBigDog]

To The Big Dog:

Here are my sources of information.

 

Concerning overpopulation:

Negative Population Growth

 

Concerning water shortages:

Go to your home page and type in "Water projection shortages for 36 US states.

I followed your instructions. I went to the Hypography home page and searched for Water projection shortages for 36 US states.

 

Your search - Water projection shortages for 36 US states - did not match any documents.

 

Suggestions:

 

* Make sure all words are spelled correctly.

* Try different keywords.

* Try more general keywords.

* Try fewer keywords.

 

You will need to do better. Provide links. Your Q&A site simply asserts its own claim that it surveyed scientists about how many people could live in the US "without harming the environment" not "The scientific consensus is that 150-200 million people is the ideal population size for the US" as you asserted in your post.

 

Bill

[BrianG]

Use surface water, get your own artesian well, water rights and land rights, you've got to get agreement before you buy. Lenders are more cautious, the markets adjust. We see how carbon permits might change our economy.

 

There's efficiency in high density, single family dwellings, and America leads the way. We like it, it means we're getting something right, at least someone is having fun.