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UFO evidence


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#18 stereologist

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:05 PM

So there wre copycats poking fun at people. The fun loving hoaxers would sneak up behind the ding dongs and their fancy equipment just to make a circle nearby where they weren't looking. Those guys must have had a ball jerking the chains of ding dongs.

BTW Paige no need to go on us with the difference between truth and knowledge. To fall on that argument is to tossin the towel on the original claim that crop circles are extraordinary.

#19 paigetheoracle

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:14 AM

So there wre copycats poking fun at people. The fun loving hoaxers would sneak up behind the ding dongs and their fancy equipment just to make a circle nearby where they weren't looking. Those guys must have had a ball jerking the chains of ding dongs.

BTW Paige no need to go on us with the difference between truth and knowledge. To fall on that argument is to tossin the towel on the original claim that crop circles are extraordinary.


The point I'm making is that they 'may' be. A scientist or philosopher worth their salt makes discoveries by coming into something with an open mind rather than a closed one (Okay, gullible and innocent versus guilty and sceptical but as they say the wisest man asks the stupidest question because false pride (fear of looking like an idiot) won't).

I still stand by the argument that you need something original to hoax.

#20 Moontanman

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 09:24 AM

Of course you do, the old legend of the Devil laying down crops in circles, none of which are described as complex designs or even perfect circles. It was a rare thing and cannot be compared to the modern version and might even have been people trying to hoax evidence of the devil back then. Saying that crop circles are evidence of UFOs is really stretching the idea of evidence beyond the breaking point.

#21 paigetheoracle

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 12:01 PM

Of course you do, the old legend of the Devil laying down crops in circles, none of which are described as complex designs or even perfect circles. It was a rare thing and cannot be compared to the modern version and might even have been people trying to hoax evidence of the devil back then. Saying that crop circles are evidence of UFOs is really stretching the idea of evidence beyond the breaking point.


Ah, so you do know about that! As for the assumption that it might have been people trying to hoax evidence of the Devil - I think you've got it the wrong way round. They tried to explain a mystery by invoking another one - a discarnate being, who allegedly controls hell - some foreign clime no doubt!

Another assumption is that I'm saying UFO's make crop circles - I'm not. If you read Trevor James Constable book on what formed these circles in reed beds, you'd find he believed these were living 'critters' as he called them, living in the Earth's atmosphere: UFO's are only one of the theories suggested by investigators.

#22 stereologist

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:34 AM

I still stand by the argument that you need something original to hoax.


A hoax is to put on a stunt that mystifies people. I see circular marks in my fields all the time. Deer do it. I ask my kids and their friends what made the marks. I never had one kid suggest it was aliens, mysterious vortices, crystal power, flying pyramids, harmonic convergences, ... whatever. Kids think dogs, deer, people, raccoons, and other animals.

A scientist or philosopher worth their salt makes discoveries by coming into something with an open mind rather than a closed one

That's why I ask the kids about the marks in the field. I want them to think about what they see. I see the deer getting up from t he fields and already know what made the marks.

An open mind does not mean open to frivolous notions. There is no need to consider the ridiculous before the common. Open mind does not mean beginning with the bizarre ideas first, or even considering some new and unknown forces, energies, ...

What I clearly recall when crop circles was big was the close mindedness of the crop circle researchers that were very clear that the crop circles could not be man made.

#23 Moontanman

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:14 AM

There are UFO sightings that suffer from an embarrassment of evidence, and an embarrassing lack of explanations, crop circles are not part of that set of sightings.

#24 paigetheoracle

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 04:43 PM

A hoax is to put on a stunt that mystifies people. I see circular marks in my fields all the time. Deer do it. I ask my kids and their friends what made the marks. I never had one kid suggest it was aliens, mysterious vortices, crystal power, flying pyramids, harmonic convergences, ... whatever. Kids think dogs, deer, people, raccoons, and other animals.


That's why I ask the kids about the marks in the field. I want them to think about what they see. I see the deer getting up from t he fields and already know what made the marks.

An open mind does not mean open to frivolous notions. There is no need to consider the ridiculous before the common. Open mind does not mean beginning with the bizarre ideas first, or even considering some new and unknown forces, energies, ...

What I clearly recall when crop circles was big was the close mindedness of the crop circle researchers that were very clear that the crop circles could not be man made.


There you go then - you know that the cause of some crop circles are animals because you witnessed it. This is certainly different from people making claims about larger, man-made crop forms or those that appear to be made through microwave explanation from the way the stalks are bent, not broken (I'm not a scientist, so the explanation given for this by an expert in the field (no pun intended) in a documentary I saw on the subject could be an erroneous interpretation). All in all there could be many explanations for any effect e.g a hole in the ground could be caused by subsidence, a meteorite (unlikely but plausible), deliberately dug by man or animal, an uprooted plant, something else picked out of the ground like a rock etc.

As for another agency making crop circles - it's possible. As for what that could be, if true, is anybody's guess (This is not me saying aliens, earth forces etc. did make them, just that it is something we can't discount because we weren't there when they were all made - by this I mean anybody, supposed expert or not. This is why I keep on about personal experience, which you mention with the deer. If you see it, you know. If you don't you can only speculate, not know for sure (philosophical doubt). For instance the idea of unknown energies wouldn't fit the bill of the complex designs, which show intelligent design , so appear to be man made in the majority (fractals and the alien face, plus people signing their names) - if it's aliens, what is their motive for doing this? If it's humans it's obvious - to get attention and they've done it. By the way an open mind doesn't mean saying that aliens or earth energies caused the patterns, it means 'not knowing'. Calling it the Devils work is not knowing but trying to put a name on it, so that you can take your attention off it and put it somewhere else - if the imagination is aroused you can't do this (Like a magic trick, the mystery holds you in thrall).

The thing is they are works of art that inspire. Designs that capture the imagination like a good film or book.

#25 stereologist

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:29 PM

or those that appear to be made through microwave explanation from the way the stalks are bent, not broken


The bent stalk thing was the silliest claim of all. The so-called researchers out in the field claiming odd causes caused the bent, not broken claim to justify their work. Anyone who has ever walked through a field knows that they bend the plants, not break them. Testing by many different groups shows that breaking stalks is rare.

The problem with the term 'open mind' is that it often becomes an excuse to avoid drawing a conclusion even when the evidence is overwhelming.

#26 paigetheoracle

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 01:31 AM

The bent stalk thing was the silliest claim of all. The so-called researchers out in the field claiming odd causes caused the bent, not broken claim to justify their work. Anyone who has ever walked through a field knows that they bend the plants, not break them. Testing by many different groups shows that breaking stalks is rare.

The problem with the term 'open mind' is that it often becomes an excuse to avoid drawing a conclusion even when the evidence is overwhelming.


Oh well, there you go then - I haven't been in a corn field since I was a child, so can't dispute that (Now live in the country again after years in the city but it's mostly livestock round here, not crops): Back to the mundane world, goodbye imagination! If it can be demonstrated it can't be argued against in my opinion. Still it was a nice dream of mystery while it lasted but dreams and imagination are for children not adults, artists not scientists (The entertainment industry runs on imagination, even if it's sometimes inspired by fact).

#27 stereologist

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:19 AM

Back to the mundane world, goodbye imagination!

Geez Paige the world is an amazing place without invoking weird claims. Imagination is what lets us construct testable ideas. One of the fascinating parts of science that is often left out is the path that led to a discovery. It's never simple or straight forward. The story of the Burgess shale fossils is so interesting. What are these beasties? How are they related to life on earth? Are they even related? Some fossils were originally studied upside down: legs, legs, which are the legs. Some turned out to be mouth parts of a larger creature. It's a fascinating story of guesses and missteps, hard work, and perseverance.

Now that you live out of the city take the time to look around. If you can see the north star watch the area on a clear night and see how many circumpolar satellites can be seen. Watch the astronomy section for naked eye comets. Watch the sky for sun dogs, halos, and other events. Raise some monarch caterpillars this summer and watch the butterflies emerge. How a creature can go through so many forms and get it right is a mystery to me.

#28 paigetheoracle

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:16 AM

Geez Paige the world is an amazing place without invoking weird claims. Imagination is what lets us construct testable ideas. One of the fascinating parts of science that is often left out is the path that led to a discovery. It's never simple or straight forward. The story of the Burgess shale fossils is so interesting. What are these beasties? How are they related to life on earth? Are they even related? Some fossils were originally studied upside down: legs, legs, which are the legs. Some turned out to be mouth parts of a larger creature. It's a fascinating story of guesses and missteps, hard work, and perseverance.

Now that you live out of the city take the time to look around. If you can see the north star watch the area on a clear night and see how many circumpolar satellites can be seen. Watch the astronomy section for naked eye comets. Watch the sky for sun dogs, halos, and other events. Raise some monarch caterpillars this summer and watch the butterflies emerge. How a creature can go through so many forms and get it right is a mystery to me.


Sorry, can't do that! I live on the other side of the Atlantic and the only Monarch over here is Queen Elizabeth, the second!;) but I take your point - truth is stranger than fiction or in the words of an obscure LP from the 60's 'Ruth is Stranger than Richard'.

#29 paigetheoracle

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 04:53 AM

One last thing I'd like to say on the subject is that according to 'Animals in Translation' author Temple Grandin, we shouldn't take for granted that we are seeing is there in reality, not because it is an hallucination but because of the following:-

'A normal person's nervous system gets rid of a lot of detail and then fills the blanks with whatever he 'expects' to see'.

'It's ironic that we always say autistic children are in their own little world because if Dr (Allan) Snyder is right it's normal people who are living in their heads. Autistic people are experiencing the actual world much more directly and accurately than normal people, with all their inattentional blindness and change blindness'

Lastly, witnesses of crime suffer from traumatic inaccuracies, which is not their fault and the reason, conscious or otherwise, that criminals engage in such disruptive behaviour (threats and physical attacks upon witnesses as well as the crimes themselves being so dramatic). The explosive quality of the act of violence or robbery, destroys concentration, making memorization more difficult. To see and remember, we need peace (silence and stillness) to be sure what we're sensing as with a photograph (eidetic memory). Movement causes blurring of reality and therefore uncertainty as to what is being perceived (speed creates 'invisibility' or 'semi-invisibility' because it is hard to track, what is moving). Likewise noise distracts our attention from what we were paying attention to, towards the source of the sound. UFO's rarely cause this second problem but with their turn of speed, obviously can cause the second, even though a certain percentage are reported as moving very slow which ensures sighting is clear and therefore certain.

#30 paigetheoracle

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 01:42 AM

Another 'last thing' (I'm very good at these!) is that this is the basis of true meditation as opposed to 'guided meditation'. It is to slow down the mind, so that you can see what is really there (objective view of reality, uncluttered by future hope or past fears). A quiet/ still mind perceives things as they are in the here and now, rather than as they could be in the there and then (imagined/ remembered). This is what the Temple Grandin quotes were about - seeing reality without the 'overlay' of emotion that blights our perception of it.:naughty:

#31 freeztar

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 01:56 AM

Paige,

This thread is about ufo evidence and from the OP:

This thread is for posting evidence of ufo's Photos, and films, even sightings. Evidence should be more than "I saw a light in the sky"


Please stay on topic and stop posting unsupported belief as truth.

#32 paigetheoracle

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:00 AM

Paige,

This thread is about ufo evidence and from the OP:



Please stay on topic and stop posting unsupported belief as truth.


Sorry you're right. I was just trying to round off a debate started in this column.

#33 stereologist

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 05:48 AM

'A normal person's nervous system gets rid of a lot of detail and then fills the blanks with whatever he 'expects' to see'.

I think that if people want to see UFOs where there is none then they see that.

Movement causes blurring of reality

People are quite good at handling motion. People walk, catch balls, juggle. For things that humans cannot do well we create device extend our senses. Telescopes, cameras, microphones, microscopes, etc.

Autistic people are experiencing the actual world much more directly and accurately than normal people

No idea why this is in this thread, but that seems like a quote out of context. The use of the word accurately is wrong. Direct does not apply accuracy.

#34 paigetheoracle

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 06:36 AM

I think that if people want to see UFOs where there is none then they see that.

Yes, it's a question of interpreting what they see (alien craft), rather than what they actually see (light in the sky)

No idea why this is in this thread, but that seems like a quote out of context. The use of the word accurately is wrong. Direct does not apply accuracy.


This was here because that was the subject of the whole book (autism) of which this quote was just part

As for people 'handling' reality, this isn't what I was on about. The problem is in perception, not interaction with solid objects - in other words passive reception of information, not active output of energy.