Keating Economics

[InfiniteNow]

The Obama campaign is releasing a documentary about McCain, the Keating 5, and his involvement in the current economic crisis. Link below.

 

Keating Economics

 

 

I think this is somewhat unprecedented during an election, for the opponent to release a documentary about the other side. Watch the preview below:

 

 

YouTube - KEATING ECONOMICS: John McCain & The Making of a Financial Crisis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g72BuIvMbWY

 

 

I think this shows how closely the Obama campaign is connected to our modern YouTube culture, and demonstrates their awareness of how information spreads. I think it shows how ridiculous the McCain campaigns comments are about the Weather Underground, something that happened while Obama was a child (McCain did this, was actively involved, and was not a child when it happened). I think it focusses on a real issue, instead of whether or not somoene wears a flag pin (thanks Mr S.) or if comments about lipstick on a pig were about the governor from Alaska.

 

 

What do you think?

[Symbology]

I think it is interesting that it is one of the hottest links on YouTube and Google Video.

 

I think its interesting that McCain keeps talking about how Obama's programs will be raising taxes, and then continues to talk about spending hundreds of Billions on the war and now a new Mortgage buy back program.

 

I wonder if he really thinks we are ingorant enough not to notice, or is it that he himself is not bright enough to realize the connection?

[InfiniteNow]

I wonder if he really thinks we are ingorant enough not to notice, or is it that he himself is not bright enough to realize the connection?

That first part is EXACTLY what they think, but I think it's both. The Daily Show last night had a great take on the stupidity in the populace, and the guest (Sarah Vowell) was damn funny too.

 

Who needs qualified leadership when you have mob rule?

 

 

 

You should at least watch the first 10 minutes here (being prepared to laugh and cry all at the same time):

 

The Daily Show Full Episode | Tuesday Oct 7 2008 | Comedy Central

 

 

 

 

 

Via Pharyngula:

 

Perhaps this image will help fix the differences between the candidates in your minds.

 

 

[Pyrotex]

That first part is EXACTLY what they think, but I think it's both. The Daily Show last night had a great take on the stupidity in the populace...

It's a sad but true fact of our democracy that at the top of BOTH parties, they have access to "think tanks" and experts whose function it is to evaluate the ignorance and gullibility of the populace in every state of the Union. And to derive tactics to take advantage of same. :confused: :shrug: :shrug: They are NOT stupid. They know exactly what they're doing.

 

Now, whether or not the leaders and candidates of those parties CHOOSE to use those tactics, is another question entirely.

 

[ADD] In this case, however, I don't see the "Keating" documentaries as taking advantage of ignorance. Rather, it appears to be an attempt to remind folks of what they once knew. The Conservatives believe in small government. Nothing wrong with that, so do I.

 

But they recently have interpreted this as meaning "arbitrarily unregulated" financial institutions. Supposedly, if you take ALL restraints off a banker, he will magically be able to make more wealth. And supposedly, we're supposed to believe that with ALL restraints off, the banker can be totally trusted NOT to pull any hanky-panky after he's assured that he won't get caught if he DOES.

 

Yeah. Right. Modern bankers have such a strong tradition of integrity and honesty. Sure. That's enough. No problem.

 

Yeah... ... Right... ... ... :xx:

[Symbology]

[ADD] In this case, however, I don't see the "Keating" documentaries as taking advantage of ignorance. Rather, it appears to be an attempt to remind folks of what they once knew.

 

I agree. But I believe Infinite and I were talking about McCain's complaints of Obama's plans requiring tax $$ ... implying that his programs (Including the war) wouldn't be doing the same.

 

 

... I prefer Obama's work program for my kids which doesn't require the ingestion of lead.

[C1ay]

I'm still amazed that anyone admits favoring either of these incompetent morons. That the system has produced this selection in the semi-finals shows how much our system is failing. ;)

[questor]

We have several large problems in our country:

1. An utterly absurd and over-the top expensive method of electing our politicians.

2. A lack of consensus on what type economic system works best.

3. A lack of consensus on what constitutes the optimum society.

4. Others too numerous to detail

 

#1 could be easily fixed, # 4 could be fixed only after fixing # 2 and 3

[Zythryn]

I agree completely with number 1.

I really think we should outlaw private spending in elections and give both parties the same amount of funds to use.

I really am curious how you plan to 'fix' 2 and 3. I don't think they are broken.

Of course people have different opinions on what type of economic system works best. I hope that differences of opinion are always valued and discussed rather than 'fixed'.

I do feel that we need to punish illegal and unethical behavior rather than rewarding it with 'golden parachutes'.

[Pyrotex]

I agree completely with number 1....

I agree with Zythryn, more or less. Our elections should be vastly simplified.

I'm not so sure about #2 -- economic system. It seems to work best when it is "broken" -- that is, neither raw capitalism nor planned socialism. Those who want to "fix" our economy are typically those who want to impose raw capitalism (small government, no regulations, no oversight), or those who want the exact opposite (big government beauracracies, tight regulations, micromanagemtn oversight).

 

The trouble is, neither of them works very well. Planned socialism doesn't allow for innovation and evolution of economics as the social order shifts one way or the other. And it suppresses the creation of wealth. Raw capitalism is susceptible to greed and panic and is therefore chaotic and unstable. It maximizes the creation of wealth (good) but also breeds bubbles and robber barons--and inevitably collapses and takes a good portion of society with it (bad). This makes long term planning (say, a generation or more) and extended national projects very difficult.

 

Unfortunately, as wonderful as capitalism is (Long live the memory of John Adams!) we must remember that it is an economic system. It is not a "religion", it is not "perfect", it is not "infallible". It is based on certain sound economic principles, and upon societal trust. That is, upon human behavior. And humans are all too fallible.

[questor]

Comments on my post:

1. An utterly absurd and over-the top expensive method of electing our politicians. Easily fixed mechanically, but the politicians love it this way.

 

2. A lack of consensus on what type economic system works best.

There is obviously no consensus on how we should spend our money. One group wants to continue the wars, another wants to give more to education, another thinks the education system wastes dollars and can't do thjob with what they have. We seem to have a quasi- capitalistic, quasi-socialistic society pulling the available money in many different directions. Is it fiscally responsible to fight two wars when your country is essentially bankrupt?

Is it sensible to increase funds for a philosophically diverse educational system which is a failure by global standards? Capitalism works fine if you have oversight BEFORE the crime, not after. Government works better when you have oversight to Prevent wastage rather than ***** about it after the money is gone.

 

3. A lack of consensus on what constitutes the optimum society.

It should be obvious to anyone who reads these posts that two people can view the same event and come up with opposite versions of what happened. This is a matter of brain wiring and probably cannot be changed. Some want the government to rule their lives. Some believe political correctness is neccessary, others believe it is an assault upon tradition and good sense.

What is the optimum society? What is the role of the government, the citizen?

I had a thread on this before, but received little interest. If just a few people on this site can't agree, why would you think the public at large could?

 

So if #2 and 3 can't be fixed, we have little hope for the rest.

[Pyrotex]

... 2. A lack of consensus on what type economic system works best....

3. A lack of consensus on what constitutes the optimum society.

...What is the optimum society?...

I think there is consensus on economic system: capitalism, with just enough regulations to keep it stable. All there is to quibble about is just how much regulation is enough.

 

I think we are close to an optimal society already: a society that respects (by and large) the rule of Law; a society that is pluralistic, so that no major segment is being willfully oppressed; a society that requires very little "monitoring" from the state, but responds well to peer pressure and local ordinances.

 

I think that's a really fine society. I like living there.

 

Yes, we have some serious problems. But that's going to happen in any society. The most homogenous society I ever heard of was that of Sparta, Greece, around the 4th century BC. There was no crime or disorder. There were no lazy shiftless bums and there was no welfare. 100% of everything anybody earned stayed their own--no taxes. No bureacracies. 100% of children graduated from school and military training--or died. The army was 100% volunteers, who performed their service without pay.

 

I wouldn't want to live there.

 

But if you'd like to go there and live, questor, I will gladly pay for your bus ticket. I'll even chip in $20 for food. No kidding. No problem. ;)

Pyro

[questor]

Pyro, let's wait to see who wins the election before I pack up.

By the way, a bus won't get me there and the $20. for food wouldn't buy me a decent bottle of Retsina. You're going to have to be more realistic. Why don't you send me a $100. good faith deposit, we'll work out the rest.

[Pyrotex]

Will you accept that $100 in Credit Default Swaps?