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Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking


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#120 exchemist

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 01:14 AM

Keep in mind that Nystrom is using Fullerian terminology and, as will any individual, Nystrom has his own interpretation of it.

As far as Synergetics is concerned, Fuller -properly- defines his terms before he goes on to use them. It's not a matter of whether you agree with his definitions, rather it is a matter of understanding his use of terms if you are to have any hope of understanding the arguments in which they are employed. From there you can argue with Fuller's arguments. :lol:
 
'Engine' is my term, and well within a broader meaning than a physical or mechanical one. E.g. we may talk of an 'engine of change', which is fitting with the dictionary definition, "b. An agent, instrument, or means of accomplishment". Nystrom calls his idea 'computational cosmography' and I called his proposed experiment a 'computational engine', meaning a computer is used to accomplish the experiment.

There is not of necessity any implication of a designer in definition b., although I haven't read enough of Nystrom to know if he argues for a designer in his computational cosmography.

Some of the things I read in Nystrom, and I have read at least two different papers he authored, I disagree with because he doesn't substantiate them and they disagree with some of Hofstadter's writings which are heavily substantiated.

What I did like about Nystrom was his idea of using cellular automata and if you know anything about Conway's Life you may also know how complex behavior can emerge from a few simple rules. Here's a wiki on Life in case you aren't familiar with it: >> <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway" s_game_of_life"="">Conway's Game of Life Note the complexity it has and it operates on a 2-dimensional square matrix, so one can logically conclude how much more complexity might be had from a CA operating in/on a 3-dimensional matrix of vector equilibria.

Well OK, but your definition of "engine" is unmistakably teleological, implying purpose. An agent or instrument invites the question, "agent or instrument of what or whom?", while means of accomplishment implies a goal to be accomplished.  Does he mean this, i.e. that the universe or "Universe" is goal-oriented in some way?

 

I'm certainly aware of emergent phenomena in general but not cellular automata and I was not aware of Conway's Game of Life. This looks very interesting, in terms of providing insights into how biological life may have arisen. So thanks for this. 


Edited by exchemist, 15 June 2017 - 01:15 AM.


#121 OceanBreeze

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 03:08 AM

Glad to have you. :welcome: I gave two links; which do you think Assimov knows (knew) all about? Now that you know something about the subject, what specifics jump out as scientifically criticizeable?

 

 

 

 

The association between Fuller and Asimov that came to my mind was not of the intellectually deep variety. I immediately thought of the Spome, probably because we often operate a deep-submergence vehicle (DSV) from our ship and some of the divers have given it that nickname.

 

My appreciation of Fuller’s work extends only as far as the geometrical significance and the energy cycle as it pertains to life support systems in closed environments (such as a Bathyscaphe) and I haven’t paid much attention to his work into such things as emergent gravity and a computational cosmology, whatever that may be. I am afraid I may not have much to contribute on the more esoteric extensions of Fuller’s work or Nystrom’s interpretation of it.

 

That being said, since you find it interesting there must be something to it, and your writing style is far more entertaining and informative than the usual Hypography crackpot. :tongue2: 

 

So, I will endeavor to read along and see if I can glean anything from it.



#122 Turtle

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 12:37 PM

Well OK, but your definition of "engine" is unmistakably teleological, implying purpose. An agent or instrument invites the question, "agent or instrument of what or whom?", while means of accomplishment implies a goal to be accomplished.  Does he mean this, i.e. that the universe or "Universe" is goal-oriented in some way?
 
I'm certainly aware of emergent phenomena in general but not cellular automata and I was not aware of Conway's Game of Life. This looks very interesting, in terms of providing insights into how biological life may have arisen. So thanks for this.


We shouldn't get too tied up in the semantics of 'engine' as it was my term. I simply was trying to communicate that Nystrom proposes using a computer to achieve the goal of modeling his hypothesized computational cosmography. I'm not sure if Nystrom proposes a goal-oriented universe or nay. I think I have read 3 of his papers and confess that I have confused myself over what he says in which. :reallyconfused:

As to Conway's Life, I'm happy to have given you something of interest. :artgallery:  Decades ago I had to program it for a class and [also decades ago] I programmed and played with some 1-dimensional CAs. I have also played a bit with Life by inputting some of my graphs as initial conditions to see what might come out. Alas I seem not to have saved any of those results to share. :( (Somewhere out there in www land are Life games you can use, but I would have to do some looking to find one.)

PS You will find that Hofstadter discusses emergence in regard to a number of phenomena, not the least of which is self awareness. Just sayin'. ;)

Edited by Turtle, 15 June 2017 - 12:57 PM.


#123 Turtle

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 12:51 PM

The association between Fuller and Asimov that came to my mind was not of the intellectually deep variety. I immediately thought of the Spome, probably because we often operate a deep-submergence vehicle (DSV) from our ship and some of the divers have given it that nickname.
 
My appreciation of Fuller’s work extends only as far as the geometrical significance and the energy cycle as it pertains to life support systems in closed environments (such as a Bathyscaphe) and I haven’t paid much attention to his work into such things as emergent gravity and a computational cosmology, whatever that may be. I am afraid I may not have much to contribute on the more esoteric extensions of Fuller’s work or Nystrom’s interpretation of it.

Interesting! I did not know of spomes. On the Fuller side, his Dymaxion houses have a spomish tone. On the bathyscaphe note, and as a personal aside, I had a geology professor who did a project in Alvin off the PNW coast and he shared some of his photos and impressions of such deep dives. He was studying black smokers IIRC.
 

That being said, since you find it interesting there must be something to it, and your writing style is far more entertaining and informative than the usual Hypography crackpot. :tongue2: 
 
So, I will endeavor to read along and see if I can glean anything from it.


Nice of you to say, and nicely said. :beer: While I dig around for more shards, you might review the thread for gleanables if you haven't already. :clue:

Edited by Turtle, 15 June 2017 - 12:53 PM.


#124 exchemist

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 02:24 PM

We shouldn't get too tied up in the semantics of 'engine' as it was my term. I simply was trying to communicate that Nystrom proposes using a computer to achieve the goal of modeling his hypothesized computational cosmography. I'm not sure if Nystrom proposes a goal-oriented universe or nay. I think I have read 3 of his papers and confess that I have confused myself over what he says in which. :reallyconfused:

As to Conway's Life, I'm happy to have given you something of interest. :artgallery:  Decades ago I had to program it for a class and [also decades ago] I programmed and played with some 1-dimensional CAs. I have also played a bit with Life by inputting some of my graphs as initial conditions to see what might come out. Alas I seem not to have saved any of those results to share. :( (Somewhere out there in www land are Life games you can use, but I would have to do some looking to find one.)

PS You will find that Hofstadter discusses emergence in regard to a number of phenomena, not the least of which is self awareness. Just sayin'. ;)

Yes emergent phenomena are interesting, certainly.

 

But I am going to struggle to take in "computational cosmography", I think, due to the suggestion of design or purpose that seems to lurk unacknowledged in such an idea. Nature does not "compute", it seems to me.  

 

Unless by "compute" he simply means an evolving series of interactions that result in ordered structures appearing. I'd happily go along with that.     


Edited by exchemist, 15 June 2017 - 02:24 PM.


#125 Turtle

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 03:52 PM

Yes emergent phenomena are interesting, certainly.
 
But I am going to struggle to take in "computational cosmography", I think, due to the suggestion of design or purpose that seems to lurk unacknowledged in such an idea. Nature does not "compute", it seems to me.  
 
Unless by "compute" he simply means an evolving series of interactions that result in ordered structures appearing. I'd happily go along with that.


I will have a problem as well with design and purpose as you use those terms if I get a sniff. :rant: So far I get the drift that Nystrom is proposing what you will happily go along with. I knew nothing of Nystrom until a few days ago when I first introduced him, and as I related, I found him in the reference section of the Wiki on Fuller's Synergetics. If I appear to be championing him it is only in the vein of finding some utility being ascribed to Fuller's often convoluted writing by an [apparently] trustworthy & recognized academic.

Here's another paper by Nystrom that I have read once, and I'll just give my take without resorting to quotes of it. Caution! Paraphrasing at work. :lol:
Ontological musings on how nature computes 2010

So, Nystrom is looking for a way to describe/model the universe and its operation (non-personal), in the same way as physicists and cosmologists intend and work toward. That is to say, how does the universe work. He makes the presumption that the simpler the better in a Ockam's razorish fashion, and to that end he settles on Fuller's geometry as having the simplest basis, i.e. the tetrahedron/vector equilibrium , for the matrix and the cellular automaton as the operator (non-personal) on that matrix.

His hope is that IF he et al manage to write a program using these simplest characteristics that the equations, particles, and other representations of conventional physics and cosmology will emerge as products of computation. Should results emerge, then that would be supporting evidence for his hypothesis of a computational cosmography.

Again, I get no impression yet that Nystrom's computational cosmography demands a creative actor anymore than conventional cosmography does when citing a quantum fluctuation as the initiator of the Big Bang.

How'd I do? :reallyconfused:

#126 Turtle

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 09:28 PM

Moving on to my next read is another paper from the Wiki page on Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking. This is a downloadable PDF as were Nystrom's papers. Under no circumstances are any of you dear readers to read this material before I. :P

Explorations to Define a Theory of Foldable Great Circle Origami

CJ Fearnley
cjf@CJFearnley.com
Executive Director
Synergetics Collaborative
http://www.Synergeticists.org
15 March 2008
Presentation to the American Mathematical Society (AMS)
2008 Spring Eastern Meeting (#1036)
Special Session on Buckminster Fuller’s Synergetics and Mathematics
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences at
New York University (NYU), New York, NY



#127 Turtle

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 07:54 PM

I haven't got into the meat of the above paper, but a quick perusal reveals many links to pages about Fuller and his Synergetics. :read:
 
This one might be helpful to the timid: >> Reading Synergetics: Some Tips

#128 Turtle

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 12:05 PM

 Well, that paper was a bust for me. :(  Off to try and find some boom. :artgallery:  As usual, do not attempt to follow me. :nahnahbooboo:



#129 Turtle

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 02:02 PM

I haven't got into the meat of the above paper, but a quick perusal reveals many links to pages about Fuller and his Synergetics. :read:
 
This one might be helpful to the timid: >> Reading Synergetics: Some Tips


Following up on that page, the author gives the tip "9. If you get a copy of Synergetics 2, read the Demass Model scenario (Sec. 986). This is an excellent introduction to both volumes."

Following up on that tip, Fuller says, in part: [boldination mine]

986.040 Greek Geometry

986.041 It was a very different matter, however, when in supposed scientific integrity mathematicians undertook to abstract the geometry of structural phenomena. They began their geometrical science by employing only three independent systems: one supposedly "straight"-edged ruler, one scribing tool, and one pair of adjustable-angle dividers.

986.042 Realistically unaware that they were on a spherical planet, the Greek geometers were first preoccupied with only plane geometry. ...


:doh: Apparently we are to pay no attention to Eratosthenes determination of the circumference of Earth ca. 240 BCE. Fuller's knowledge of history appears to be Lesser. :jab: :lol:

#130 Turtle

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:30 PM

Let's return to the horse's mouth and let Bucky explain why 1=2. :o :lol:

Synergetics: 900.00 MODELABILITY:
 

986.160 Consideration 6: Diametric Unity


Fig. 986.161 f86161.gif
986.161 The installation of the closest-packed unit-radius spheres into their geometrical congruence with the isotropic vector matrix showed that each of the vectors always reaches between the spheric centers of any two tangentially adjacent spheres. This meant that the radius of each of the kissing spheres consists of one-half of the interconnecting vectors. Wherefore, the radius of our closest-packed spheres being half of the system vector, it became obvious that if we wished to consider the radius of the unit sphere as unity, we must assume that the value of the vector inherently interconnecting two unit spheres is two. Unity is plural and at minimum two. Diameter means dia- meter -- unit of system measurement is two.

986.162 Fig. 986.161 shows one vector D whose primitive value is two. Vectors are energy relationships. The phenomenon relationship exists at minimum between two entities, and the word unity means union, which is inherently at minimum two. "Unity is plural and at minimum two" also at the outset became a prime concept of synergetics vectorial geometry. (See Sec. 540.10.)