DanGray Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 I'm building a on demand Hydrogen generator though in the past it was not feasible to do this, but now it is with the technology we have today, this unit takes only 3 amps or less to operate and on 12V I have the plans for it and by looking at them I'm sure it will work , I also know of a guy that had built one of these and is saving now on his fuel costs in his car, by like 40% , the one I want to build , you can use it for fuel also in a propane grill .. and if you can do that you should be able to heat your home with it also ( more than one or a bigger one)..the uses are un-limited. ????is there anyone here interested in this that can build a circuit board ground up..it will be a unit to produce duel oscillating generating square wave voltage, I have access to an oscilloscope to tweak the unit once assembled.. if I can get some one to build the circuitry, I can build the rest , and I will share all the plans with the interested person that can do this with me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitack Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Whether for use in your car, or for a grill, or for generating power for your house, you will ultimately put more energy into the system than you get out. The only way this will actually help you is if you use something like a solar panel to produce the hydrogen. Even then, you will not get that much. On top of that, you will generally need a fuel cell to get any real energy out of the system, which requires very expensive materials, namely platinum. How about you elaborate on the design a bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanGray Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Whether for use in your car, or for a grill, or for generating power for your house, you will ultimately put more energy into the system than you get out. The only way this will actually help you is if you use something like a solar panel to produce the hydrogen. Even then, you will not get that much. On top of that, you will generally need a fuel cell to get any real energy out of the system, which requires very expensive materials, namely platinum. How about you elaborate on the design a bit... this unit sounds a bit better than that.. I'm very limited on what I can post here because of lack of use I need to have posted 10 times it seems to post links here .. I'll post a few more time and post a link to a forum that this subject has started now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitack Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 this unit sounds a bit better than that.. I'm very limited on what I can post here because of lack of use I need to have posted 10 times it seems to post links here .. I'll post a few more time and post a link to a forum that this subject has started now.. Well I'll elaborate a bit on why any unit is probably inefficient while you build your post count :evil:. Lets say it is one of those things that say "Run your car on water!" Well, you need electricity to split hydrogen out of water (conventionally, or you can do it with radio waves as we discovered, see "Kanzius Effect"). Your car does produce electricity via the alternator while it is running. However if you try to extract additional electricity your alternator will draw more mechanical energy from the engine to do so. In order to provide the mechanical energy your car will consume more gasoline. Also, consider this, every time you convert energy from one form to another you lose energy. No conversion is 100% efficient. rather than the 1 conversion a car normally makes (chemical energy from the gasoline to mechanical energy), you are making four conversions (chemical to mechanical to electrical to chemical (hydrogen) back to mechanical). Same, but more simplified reasoning for home use. You will use more energy from the wall outlet splitting hydrogen than you will get from the hydrogen as a fuel source. That all being said... If you used a solar panel to produce hydrogen, the only input is sunlight (free and relatively unlimited), and the output is a usable fuel. Once again though, the more you convert the energy around, the more you will lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanGray Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 well for one I do know these do work in cars so that is not a concern an auto Alt, most of them take ~ 5 hp to run and that's at full load. we talking 80-100 amp.. this unit, it's said takes up to 3 amp DC that's not much yes as what you are saying the old types did take a lot of juice to run.. unless you've worked with one of the new square wave units I'm not sure you can help me here.. but any way here is the link to the forum I' started this on one of the guys is using one of the generators but not the one I'm building but his is working... mine it's say to work on your grill and such also..I think it's one that will be more effective and that's in the way it's built..a Hydrogen generator , fuel for a forge (;>)) I need help - BladeForums.comyou may have to reg ( free) to get to the link.. thanks for your input Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitack Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 well for one I do know these do work in cars so that is not a consern an auto Alt, most of them take ~ 5 hp to run and that's at full load. we talking 80-100 amp.. this unit, it's said takes up to 3 amp DC that's not much yes as what you are saying the old types did take a lot of juice to run.. No matter the efficiency of the alternator, you can not get out more energy than you put in. It would violate the First Law of Thermodynamics. Even if the conversion was 100% efficient in converting electricity from your alternator to hydrogen, you would still lose gas millage from the added weight of the water (no matter how little water you needed to carry). It is a gimmick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanGray Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 No matter the efficiency of the alternator, you can not get out more energy than you put in. It would violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Even if the conversion was 100% efficient in converting electricity from your alternator to hydrogen, you would still lose gas millage from the added weight of the water (no matter how little water you needed to carry). It is a gimmicksounds like a bad law to me.. haha sorry you'll have to tell that to the guys that it's working for.. I know some of these guys.. I'm just looking for a more efective one, it's not a mater of it not working , they do at lease some of them.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitack Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 sorry you'll have to tell that to the guys that it's working for.. I know the some of these guys.. Ilm just looking for a more efective one, it's not a mater of it not working , they do at lease some of them.. I looked at the link. They are using their household electric to produce the hydrogen. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanGray Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 I looked at the link. They are using their household electric to produce the hydrogen. :) I didn't say that , I said my plans to mine say you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 I didn't say that , I said my plans to mine say you can. :) You can what? Violate the laws of thermodynamics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanGray Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 You can what? Violate the laws of thermodynamics? no just but just as I wrote.. it's amazing that if something is written on paper most everyone will believe it.. laws or what have you.. it's proven that much of our history was not taken down correctly but because it's written we believe it, much of it now is being proven wrong, why is it so hard to believe one man may not be right in his beliefs,, remember in his day it was differant now he'd be amazed to what we see and do now.. don't you think that could be so or are we to stay on the stone age forever because some will refuse to expand their minds just because of something that has been written on paper.. I don't believe Darwin had a clue but he still has followers :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitack Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 no just but just as I wrote.. it's amazing that if something is written on paper most everyone will believe it.. laws or what have you.. it's proven that much of our history was not taken down correctly but because it's written we believe it, much of it now is being proven wrong, why is it so hard to believe one man may not be right in his beliefs,, remember in his day it was differant now he'd be amazed to what we see and do now.. don't you think that could be so or are we to stay on the stone age forever because some will refuse to expand their minds just because of something that has been written on paper.. I don't believe Darwin had a clue but he still has followers :) Friend, the laws of thermodynamics are not just "something written on paper". They are the fundamental laws which allow our universe to operate. System parameters if you will. Your welcome not to believe in them, but if you can prove them wrong please do, because you'd be getting a Nobel Prize for the effort. Otherwise, you might not find a SCIENCE forum is the proper place to have this discussion. We are quite fond of our laws of physics. Also, if you don't believe in Darwin, perhaps the Creationism crowd is the right group for you to be talking to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanGray Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 my my my Friend, the laws of thermodynamics are not just "something written on paper". They are the fundamental laws which allow our universe to operate. System parameters if you will. Your welcome not to believe in them, but if you can prove them wrong please do, because you'd be getting a Nobel Prize for the effort. Otherwise, you might not find a SCIENCE forum is the proper place to have this discussion. We are quite fond of our laws of physics. Also, if you don't believe in Darwin, perhaps the Creationism crowd is the right group for you to be talking to. :) haha well have it your way BUT the fact remains I now know two people that these are working for and being used on their vehicles and working ,, you can explain to them why with the laws that are set in stone, I don't think they will be removing them from their cars too soon.. I don't have to prove it because it's a fact, call it what you may.. still,I'm not concerned with that,, it's not the fact that it's being done or can't be done the issue is making it work better.. You don't have to prove anything to me, prove what you will to the ones that are using them that would more interesting me at this point.. have fun with that if you will.. hey no disrespect was intended here I'll do as I planed anyway with help from here or not..see my first post , it wasn't ever my concern if any of you believed or not.. I burn sawdust to heat my house in the winter too but you have those that would say Holly crap is that new ???? I know I know, it's not the same , but some mind sets are for some .. I'm not trying to change what you believe but just want to perfect what I do know is working for others.. go to that link again and tell Ed it's in his mind,that he is getting better fuel mileage from his generator.. I'll better you 100 bucks he'll keep using it.. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitack Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 my my my haha well have it your way BUT the fact remains I now know two people that these are working for and being used on their vehicles and working ,, you can explain to them why with the laws that are set in stone, I don't think they will be removing them from their cars too soon.. I think you and your friends are confusing transferring energy with energy efficiency. Using domestic electric power to produce hydrogen does not increase your fuel economy in your vehicle, it is simply transferring power from one source (electrical, wall outlet) to the engine(chemical, hydrogen being combusted). I don't have to prove it because it's a fact Ah, but you do. We all consider ourselves scientists to one degree or another, and we like proof :lol:. Which is why the #1 and #2 rule for the forums deal with the providing of proof. In general, back up your claims by using links or references.If you make strange claims, please provide proof or at least backup of some kind. If you fail to do so, or the backup you provide is not deemed adequate, the moderators may move your post to the Strange Claims forum. call it what you may.. still,I'm not concerned with that,, it's not the fact that it's being done or can't be done the issue is making it work better.. ABSOLUTELY! I would love to help you design something to work better, but first we have to get the fundamentals correct. You can't get more energy out of the hydrogen than you put into producing it. Until you realize that I can not help you. Once you do acknowledge that, we can talk about a design that will ACTUALLY increase your fuel economy using something like small solar panels to steadily produce hydrogen. (Small amounts Freeztar, I won't let him blow up, I promise:angel2:) You don't have to prove anything to me, prove what you will to the ones that are using them that would more interesting me at this point.. have fun with that if you will.. hey no disrespect was intended here I'll do as I planed anyway with help from here or not..see my first post , it wasn't ever my concern if any of you believed or not.. I burn sawdust to heat my house in the winter too but you have those that would say Holly crap is that new ???? I know I know, it's not the same , but some mind sets are for some .. I'm not trying to change what you believe but just want to perfect what I do know is working for others.. go to that link again and tell Ed it's in his mind,that he is getting better fuel mileage from his generator.. I'll better you 100 bucks he'll keep using it.. Your mind is set on this obviously, so nothing can be done to change that. I will simply link you the introduction to the wiki article for a Water-fuelled Car A water-fuelled car is a automobile that is claimed to use water as its fuel or produces fuel from water onboard, with no other energy input. Water-fuelled cars have been mentioned in newspapers, popular science magazines, local news coverage, and the internet (YouTube); at least some of the claims were found to be tied to investment frauds.[1][2] This article focuses on vehicles which purport to extract their energy directly from water, a process which would violate the first and/or second laws of thermodynamics.[3][4][5][6] Wiki ain't perfect, but they are right in this instance. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitack Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Just a bit more information. It may look like free energy, but as the wiki page points out, your just getting your energy from another chemical reaction, in this case, boron. Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaHydrogen on demand technologies A hydrogen on demand vehicle uses some kind of chemical reaction to produce hydrogen from water. The hydrogen is then burned in an internal combustion engine or used in a fuel cell to generate electricity which powers the vehicle. While these may seem at first sight to be 'water-fuelled cars', they actually take their energy from the chemical that reacts with water, and vehicles of this type are not precluded by the laws of nature. Aluminium, magnesium, and sodium borohydride are substances that react with water to generate hydrogen, and all have been used in hydrogen on demand prototypes. Eventually, the chemical runs out and has to be replenished.[37][38][39] In all cases the energy required to produce such compounds exceeds the energy obtained from their reaction with water.[40] One example of a hydrogen on demand device, created by scientists from the University of Minnesota and the Weizmann Institute of Science, uses boron to generate hydrogen from water. An article in New Scientist in July 2006 described the power source under the headline "A fuel tank full of water,"[40] and they quote Abu-Hamed as saying:“ The aim is to produce the hydrogen on-board at a rate matching the demand of the car engine. We want to use the boron to save transporting and storing the hydrogen. ” A vehicle powered by the device would take on water and boron instead of petrol, and generate boron trioxide. The chemical reactions describing the energy generation are: 4B + 6H2O → 2B2O3 + 6H2 [Hydrogen Generation Step] 6H2 + 3O2 → 6H2O [Combustion step] The balanced chemical equation representing the overall process (hydrogen generation and combustion) is: 4B + 3O2 → 2 B2O3 As shown above, boron trioxide is the only net byproduct, and it could be removed from the car and turned back into boron and reused. Electricity input is required to complete this process which Al-Hamed suggests could come from solar panels. [40] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanGray Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 first I'm not sure why you keep running back to domestic? it's not a big point but a fact of the paper work not proven by me.. but it does say 3 amp or less. you do know that is not a lot of power I'm sure.. but regardless for proof of this in general that these do work again ED is that proof of mine.. here http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580552 he is using an additive to his water but my plans ( different than that of his) call for none, the guy I got my plans from has a working unit also..but I need to confirm that he has gone by the plans 100%..no chem.'s added. the one ED is using is not IMO keeping a close enough tolerances to not to have to use something for an electrolyte.. that being said, again, I'm not asking for help with anything but the electronics part of this, the rest I don't have a problem with.. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 No one is arguing that your design will not work. What we are saying is that you are actually losing efficiency by doing so. Now, it may work out that you save money by doing this, but that's only because electricity is currently cheaper than gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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