What is the Future of America?

[questor]

America is changing rapidly. Our ethnic makeup is changing with the influx of foreigners flooding our country legally and illegally. Our cultural traditions are being changed, replaced, or destroyed by those who will not assimilate and are frequently enabled by those who believe this country in its current form should be torn down and rebuilt to be more multi-ethnic and multi-cultural.

It is now ''progresssive'' to attack corporations and the wealthy because it is not fair that one man should profit more than another. Our educational system

is in disarray, and we dare not say why. Politcal correctess forbids merit and constructive criticism. We have failed to educate our children to keep up with the developing countries and be able to compete in the new global economy.

Grandfather International Education Reform Report - by MWHodges

Are we now going to surrender our previous pre-eminence in technology, medicine, electronics, automobiles, and science? Will we quickly become a second rate country? If we continue to welcome all comers into our country without emphasizing taking in the best of the best, we will end up as the worst of the worst.

What is the reason for this? Is it the desire for too much immigration, with too many conflicting cultures? A culture of envy which calls for ever higher taxation to fund entitlements and even the playing field? Have we lost our admiration for education, ambition, merit and hard work? Are we proud of a government that is run as a petty fiefdom with minimal oversight and little fiscal responsibility?

What are the advantages of multiculturalism and multi-ethnicity? Are the incoming cultures superior to ours? Should we adopt the economic and cultural systems of those who flood our shores?

 

The percentage of original European settlers of this country will continue to

shrink and at some point will become increasingly irrelevant.

U.S. Population Could Reach 438 Million by 2050, and Immigration Is Key

by Carl Haub

 

''(February 2008) A new report from the Pew Research Center projects that immigration will propel the U.S. population total to 438 million by 2050, from 303 million today (see Figure 1). Along with this growth, the racial and ethnic profile of Americans will continue to shift—with non-Hispanic whites losing their majority status. (U.S. Population Projections: 2005-2050''

U.S. Population Could Reach 438 Million by 2050, and Immigration Is Key - Population Reference Bureau

 

Is this good for America? Is this the future you would pick for your grandchildren?

[Thunderbird]

 

Is this good for America? Is this the future you would pick for your grandchildren?

 

Yes, historically being a multicultural society is a strength not a weakness. This is nothing new. America has always had influxes of immigration. Keep in mind 500 years ago the country was 100% native Americans.

[Zythryn]

Our cultural traditions are being changed, replaced, or destroyed by those who will not assimilate...

 

Our cultural traditions are indeed changing, as they have done since the country was founded. I am curious why you draw a link between the cultural change and immigrants which 'will not assimilate'. (Please correct me if my paraphrase was innacurate and you meant something else by 'those who will not assimilate'.

 

It is now ''progresssive'' to attack corporations and the wealthy because it is not fair that one man should profit more than another.

 

I am curious where you got this? And who is holding the position that all men should 'profit' by the same amount? I have not heard of that position with regard to our society.

 

Our educational system is in disarray, and we dare not say why.

 

I agree with the sentiment of the first part, but am curious why you feel 'we dare not say why'? I've said so a number of times in threads on this very forum.

 

Politcal correctess forbids merit and constructive criticism.

 

Forbids who? In my last job I both received and gave quite a bit of constructive criticism. Both the receiving and giving were benificial in helping the recipient improve themselves. Just where is merit and constructive criticism forbidden?

 

We have failed to educate our children to keep up with the developing countries and be able to compete in the new global economy.

Grandfather International Education Reform Report - by MWHodges

 

I completely agree with this. It is a travesty and we should be working hard to increase our ratings and competitiveness in the world.

 

Are we now going to surrender our previous pre-eminence in technology, medicine, electronics, automobiles, and science? Will we quickly become a second rate country? If we continue to welcome all comers into our country without emphasizing taking in the best of the best, we will end up as the worst of the worst.

 

Again, I completely agree with the concern in the first part of your statement. I fail to see any connection to the second part. How does welcoming immigrants translate to failure of our national education in comparison to the world?

 

Have we lost our admiration for education, ambition, merit and hard work? Are we proud of a government that is run as a petty fiefdom with minimal oversight and little fiscal responsibility?

 

I hope not. But you seem to again link this to immigration. Why?

 

What are the advantages of multiculturalism and multi-ethnicity? Are the incoming cultures superior to ours?

 

I am a person that believes that a society gains strength from the addition of other viewpoints.

I also believe that while the other culture may not be superior to ours in all ways, that we can certainly learn from the good aspects. The Pope I am sure would commend the strong Catholic background of Latin Americans and would encourage the culture of the US to adopt that stronger Catholic tendancies.

 

Should we adopt the economic and cultural systems of those who flood our shores?

 

Sure, if they are better than ours. If they are not, then I would say we shouldn't.

[freeztar]

Questor and Zyth,

 

You both speak of "our culture". Do you mean "American culture"?

 

If so, I find it highly amusing when people talk about "American Culture". America is a stew of various cultures. What exactly is specifically American? Hot dogs? Baseball? Violent movies?

 

In this day and age, we're inundated with Mexican restaurants, Yoga studios, Buddhist temples, sushi restaurants, etc.

 

America doesn't have any culture except what has been brought here from other cultures. Of course, I'm not talking about Native America, that's a whole other sad story.

 

Why do I feel like I'm gonna catch a lot of flac for this? :hihi:

[questor]

Which societies have improved by allowing immigration of people who are less

well educated or job trained than the original inhabitants? Which of our current immigrants should we copy insofar as culture and economic system?

What are the advantages of the immigration system we have now?

[Zythryn]

Freeztar, no flak from this direction.

You raise two excellent points. First, yes, I was speaking of the culture in the United States of America. My apologies to people from other parts of the world for bypassing that clarification.

Second, I believe America (USA specifically) does indeed have its own culture.

I also believe that culture is a result of many other cultures and their interactions. I do agree though that the resulting culture was heavily influenced by the immigrants throughout the history of the US and continues to change just as it has throughout its history.

[questor]

America 50+ years ago did indeed have a recognizable culture. It has only changed lately by the actions of the ACLU, political correctness, anti religion, and non-judgementalism factions.

For those of you that think America has/had no native culture, which of the incoming cultures would you best like to emulate?

[Zythryn]

Questor, you asked a whole slew of questions in your first post. I took some time to respond to most of them.

I would appreciate it if you would continue the discussion you started.

Do you agree, do you disagree? Could you explain the statements you made which didn't seem linked?

 

That being said:

Which societies have improved by allowing immigration of people who are less

well educated or job trained than the original inhabitants?

 

Many:) I would say that the United States society improved immensly by taking in many Norwegian and Irish. The hard work ethic of the Norwegians helped Minnesota immensly. And I feel the society is much 'richer' for the addition of a variety of people with different backgrounds.

Just as a side question, why the qualifier about education? Many immigrants are not well educated, that is true. But as you linked to and described in your own post, much of the world is better educated than us;)

 

Which of our current immigrants should we copy insofar as culture and economic system?

 

I'd say the Latvians, or many of the eastern European immigrants from countries with the flat tax.

As for culture, I like the importance many Latinos place on family and I think that is something our culture could benifit from.

 

What are the advantages of the immigration system we have now?

I have noted a number of them above. However, that is more about immigration in general. The system we have now, I feel, is dreadfully broken and needs much repair.

I think we need a national ID card (topic for another thread if you like) for all citizens (immigrants and otherwise). I also believe we need to allow many more legal immigrants and we need to secure our borders.

Likewise, we need to punish businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants (also a topic for a seperate thread?).

[Thunderbird]

America 50+ years ago did indeed have a recognizable culture. It has only changed lately by the actions of the ACLU, political correctness, anti religion, and non-judgementalism factions.

For those of you that think America has/had no native culture, which of the incoming cultures would you best like to emulate?

 

I recently attended a two festivals. One was our local county fair which could be summed up culturally by the picture below.

 

 

The other was held Saturday in Tower grove park in St Louis. It was the “festival of Nations” celebrating the diversity of the city with music, dance, food. I wish to god we had more of that where I live.

 

 

....and a little less of this.

[questor]

Thunderbird, are these your neighbors? Thanks for a good laugh. Are you saying you want more immigrants so you can eat ethnic food and dance to some good salsa music?

[questor]

Zythryn, you want the flat tax and the close family. Do you think we could accomplish that without absorbing several million new immigrants? As far as education, 50 years ago, America was the envy of the world with its educational system, manufacturing system, and technical expertise, now we are falling behind in all these categories... why do you think that is happening?

This is your world and you'll have to live in it. Health care is skyrocketing in cost, social security is running out, universities are overcrowded and prohibitedly expensive. How do you think 10-20 million more immigrants are going to help you?

[Thunderbird]

Thunderbird, are these your neighbors? Thanks for a good laugh. Are you saying you want more immigrants so you can eat ethnic food and dance to some good salsa music?

No that's a picture I found on the internet to make a point about American culture. I think cultural diversity is more than just food and dance, its about complexity as opposed to homogeneity.

 

You were eluding that one culture may be superior to another. Apples and oranges.

[questor]

zythryn, your quote...

''Many I would say that the United States society improved immensly by taking in many Norwegian and Irish. The hard work ethic of the Norwegians helped Minnesota immensly. And I feel the society is much 'richer' for the addition of a variety of people with different backgrounds.''

When did these people come to the US? How did their culture differ from those already here? Did these people readily assimilate with the others?

your quote...'' I also believe we need to allow many more legal immigrants''

How many more would please you? How will these people enrich our society to make it better? They will drive on our decaying bridges, drink our dwindling water, use our expensive health care system, bring some of their criminal gangs and drug culture with them. What exactly, do we get in return?

Please be specific about the benefits, I don't think ethnic food and a little dancing is a very good trade.

[Zythryn]

Zythryn, you want the flat tax and the close family. Do you think we could accomplish that without absorbing several million new immigrants?

 

I think that would be possible. Why is one way of accomplishing it better than another?

 

As far as education, 50 years ago, America was the envy of the world with its educational system, manufacturing system, and technical expertise, now we are falling behind in all these categories... why do you think that is happening?

 

That is an excellent question. I would guess it is due to the fanatical Christian Right and their war against science. However there are lots of possible reasons.

I gather from your posts that you feel it is due to immigrants? If so, might I suggest comparing geographical areas where education has suffered over the last 50 years with the influx into those areas of immigrants. See if there is any correlation.

 

This is your world and you'll have to live in it. Health care is skyrocketing in cost, social security is running out, universities are overcrowded and prohibitedly expensive. How do you think 10-20 million more immigrants are going to help you?

 

Hmmm, good point I do have to live in it. I don't feel that the things you mention have happened soley, if at all, because of immigration. I especially don't understand your mentioning overcrowding at universities. First, do you feel there is overcrowding at universities? I haven't heard of this. Second, are you saying that these poorly educated immigrants are going to college? If so, that seems to be a good thing as they can then contribute more to our society.

 

As for the how 10-20 million more immigrants are going to help me??? Well, at the very least they are going to pay into our SS system and help it last a bit longer:)

[questor]

T'bird, do you think that with all the religions and cultures now in the US we are all one big, happy family? Do you think that adding a few million more will smooth things out? Do you think a society is better if every one has similar cultural traits or if everyone is different?

[questor]

Zythryn, I don't think the fanatic Christian right has any influence on our educational system as a whole. The NEA actually seeems to be more in bed with the democrats.

No, I definitely do not blame all our troubles on immigrants, but immigrants

from all over the globe are trying to get on a very crowded bus. The real danger comes from those who do not understand what this will cause to themselves.

[Zythryn]

When did these people come to the US?

 

Isn't that irrelavent? Why does it matter when?

I believe the largest influx was in the early to mid 1800s.

 

How did their culture differ from those already here? Did these people readily assimilate with the others?

 

You are joking, right? How much detail would you like?

And no, many had great difficulty assimilating into the local culture. Many never learned to speak english. We have a number of cities in Minnesota that were founded by immigrants from Norway and Germany that to this day have parades celebrating their original heritage.

 

How many more [immigrants] would please you?

Not me, I am not looking for more immigrants for my own 'pleasure'. Instead I am looking for immigrants that wish to come to work, learn and enrich our own culture. Basically contributors to our society.

 

How will these people enrich our society to make it better?

 

In the same way any natural born citizen will. Each according to their own strengths.

 

They will drive on our decaying bridges, drink our dwindling water, use our expensive health care system, bring some of their criminal gangs and drug culture with them. What exactly, do we get in return?

Please be specific about the benefits, I don't think ethnic food and a little dancing is a very good trade.

 

You could say the same thing about Greeks, or men, or women, or retirees. Everyone drives on our decaying bridges, drink our water, use our health care, etc.. What exactly do we get in return when any of these people use the resources of our society?

 

Questor, what exactly is your point? You keep asking questions. What is your position?

Do you have any data to back up any of your statements. Or is this simply a rant?