Electromagnetic motor

[alexander]

Yeah, i should like put $ signs around the currency or something $pounds$ or something, it does sound a bit confusing :(

 

Yeah, I believe so

 

While 1

Do

:evil::friday::hihi::hyper::hihi:

sleep 172800

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Loop

Fixed, upon Distrubd's request (notice the order didn't change, context did, hehe)

[Moontanman]

Now do you see why a vehicle can run on motion?

 

Uh, No.

 

Pehaps a vehicle can run on the motion of light?

 

Uh, No. a vehicle can run off of electricity generated from the energy of light (not it's motion) but it really isn't practical due to the amount of solar cells need to get enough power. It wouldn't hurt if you covered your vehicle with solar cells as long as their weight wasn't too great. Every little bit helps.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Ok, first of all, your 100cc bike is a 2 stroke, and we need to clearly state that, where as i was talking about a much more clean-burning 4 stroke, that will do only about 60,

I don't know...a buddy O' mine has a 110cc alcahol powered

racing cart (4 stroke) that hits a buck-thirty.:)

Yeah, i should like put $ signs around the currency or something $ or something, it does sound a bit confusing

I figured you slipped and added extra zeros...you gotta admit 150lbs for the body 900lbs for the whole vehicle sounds reasonable.

 

Now to try to explain this...

 

O.k. you have a 30Hp electric motor with 45'lbs of torque from zero Rpm to 3500 Rpm

Attached to it a fixed ratio driveline capable of thirty MPH.

 

To get that torque from 0 Rpm to top speed the motor will draw roughly 140% of it's sustainable duty cycle. Surge loads are part of starting any electric motor and generaly the max. is +40 percent of the maximum opperational load meaning the motor can only reasonably sustain this type of load for 6 of 10 minutes without overheating. This is called 60% duty cycle because you can only sustain it for the afforementioned 6 of 10 minutes continuous opperation, where as 100% duty cycle means you can sustain opperation at this level continuously for as long as you wish. Your power supply whether it be battery or generator or even solar have similar limitations (and generally have specified duty cycles for surge and continuous loads with the surge load being about 60% duty cycle or 140% of continuous opperating load).

 

Back to the motor

This means that until the motor is at a sustained speed it will draw more power than it will consume to maintain a fixed speed under load.

As you may understand it is far easier to maintain a given speed than to get to it regardless of method of propulsion and that using different gear ratios make it easier to get to the same speed rather than to utilise a fixed drive ratio. (a single speed bike vs. a ten-speed for example)

 

Let's assume the motor is being used to propel a small car 1500Lbs with driver...Now you have the full surge load from 0MPH until 30Mph as well as a portion of it over the duration of any incline you encounter.

 

This is where variable drive ratios prove beneficial by reducing the initial load on the motor you allow it to accelerate more quickly thus reducing the time

it's at it's maximum duty cycle thereby reducing overall power consumption to get to speed.

Simply fixed ratios make the motor work harder under acceleration.

 

To offset this you can gear the motor to make acceleration easier, BUT this will also mean it will have to spin faster at top speed which will also increase power consumption...Again a variable final drive allows for the best mix of easier acceleration and more efficient crusing at top speed by allowing the motor to turn more slowly for the same speed and loading.

 

By allowing easier acceleration you allow for a less powerful motor to do the same work as a more powerful one.

Example. For normal road use a 100HP car is just as good as a 200HP car of the same type until it's time to fuel up.

In the case of electric vehicles a more powerful motor means more batteries are required for the same range, which means a good deal more weight which of course means more power is required to move the vehicle, which will yield diminshed cargo capabilities or shorter range (with fewer batteries).

 

This just like with any other engine is a balancing act of power vs. weight vs. speed vs. range...To get the best of all you must make concessions and either decide at what speed you want it to be most efficient or offer an assortment of drive ranges which allow it to be efficient at several speeds.

 

Don't forget generators under load place the engine driving them under similar loads to the drive-motor (you can only harvest as much power as you put in)

meaning to drive a 100hp electric motor you must have a generator capable of powering a 100hp motor for sustained durations as well as produce enough power for the duration of the surge load at startup and during acceleration...And of course that means that the engine driving the generator must make at least 100hp as well and be able to push through the additional loads of startup and acceleration. Efficiency of Diesel-electric hybrids comes from maintaining a constant speed at the engine thus eliminating the extra fuel consumption of varying engine speeds and by allowing the engine to be built to be most efficient at a speed specific to the needs of the generator.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

 

 

:naughty::):naughty::)

 

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Oh wait, i meant the other order, first ride then drink ;)

Depends...on the trails drinkin' and ridin' frequently occur simaltaniously, though there is often alchahol abuse (Ie. spilled beers:naughty:)....But the real drinkin' doesn't start till the engines are cold and the smoke has cleared...we're not entirely stupid.

On the blacktop the reverse is manditory.

[alexander]

fixed, upon your request

 

don't know...a buddy O' mine has a 110cc alcahol powered

racing cart (4 stroke) that hits a buck-thirty.

ok, key words here are alcohol powered (what a waste of perfectly good alcohol, i mean HOW does he live with himself after driving the damn thing?)

 

first of all, alcohol produces much less heat, which alows you to push more of it into the cylinder and run at higher revs safer then you normally could, and thus make more power... safer... and cooler

 

i'll give you an example of what happens when you tune an engine to run on ethanol. Koenigsegg is putting out their infamous CCXR, which is an e85-tuned CCX, CCX made 800 bhp out of a 5 liter v8, CCXR is making 1054 HP from the same based motor, now tuned specifically for the alcohol-based fuel.

 

a gas-powered 110 will not do 120mph, i oftenly ride a kx110, there is no way, even with the 4th gear, to take it past 60, on the pavement mind you, with street tires and lightened rims!

 

now the other thing too is that it may have started off as a 110, i see it all the time, a big boar kit will give it more out of the same case (and it will still say 110 on it)

 

lastly, do you have a way of confirming that it goes 120, the speedo may go up to 120, but more oftenly then not, they won't go anywhere that fast.

 

And this is not just my opinion, i have talked to 4 experts, one of which builds alcohol drag bikes, and has been doing that for more then 45 years, building and racing drag bikes that is, he is now retired and continues kicking butt on the track (he does mostly bracket racing, but if you are willing to throw down 1500-2000, he'll race you for real, that turbo cranks to over 35lb btw), one is an engine mechanic, one of his things to do is taking a brand new (almost every year) gsxr-1000 motor and making into a turboed motor with automated nitris injection, with fully automated pneumatic shifting, and doing 1/4 miles at high 7s still slipping the 300 wide tire at the end, as well as building motors for stock cars. The last 2 guys i have talked to have been working 30 years each, building, fixing, rebuilding and riding bikes, quads, jet-skis, sleds, carts, and anything that they could get their hands on. The above is a cumulative opinion of them as well, so please don't just "well my friend said". And i may talk to another friend of mine that also builds stock cars, and races them, but has also done go carts, etc, and has built quite a few...though haven't seen him in ages if you are still insisting on the 120 in a stock 110cc cart...

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Well you asked so here it is I've actually watched him race it a Lake Erie Speedway. (L.E.S. is a NASCAR sanctioned high bank race track about a half mile from my home.) During qualifying they announce the speed and time for each driver.

though haven't seen him in ages if you are still insisting on the 120 in a stock 110cc cart..

Who said anything about stock? I said 110cc alcahol fed racing cart....you know high comp. pistons, etc.etc. But it still has a displacement of 110cc. no big bore kit, no stroker kit. They're not allowed.

[Moontanman]

Come on guys, hasn't this strayed a ways from the original thread?

[alexander]

I see, i should have clarified it, as i can see, i am already getting bad rep for this, and it doesn't even matter from whom, but ok, i need to clarify my view point

 

I am not out to disprove that point, actually i am really interested in this motor, its one of very few that actually go more then 1mph per cc, it's actually pretty rare. I'll give you an example, a yamaha banshee, until this year, the fastest quad out of the box, at 350cc displacement (2 stroke) only managed 75 mph, a kx110 will do 60, this pit bike i used to have would do about 55 at 85cc displacement, it's pretty rare to see something that will do more then 1mph per cc. Yeah the alcohol racing carts are frigging amazing, i drove one, and it was before my wrenching time, but it was really fast for being so small and light. So my criticism is only driven by desire to merely ask to verify the validity of the statement, and it may very easily be true.

 

Btw, high comp pistons means that they increased the stroke, perhaps inderectly, but most certainly, otherwise how do you increase compression :)

 

I now wonder about the efficiency of the alcohol motor, i know they burn cooler, and i know they pollute less, i wonder just how clean you can get it to burn, and how much power you can use to produce electricity.... from a relatively small motor....

 

Brain is churning something, tis thinking and tinkering with stuff gotta stimulate it with some knowledge or something, some future car ideas :)

 

i gotta work on some pictures from sunday, i'll post some in the motorcycles group in a little bit

[alexander]

Come on guys, hasn't this strayed a ways from the original thread?

well sort of, since the original question pertained to regenerating energy from electric drive trains, it has sparked a discussion on hybrid car design, and the fossil-fuel engine is a big part of such a car, the more efficient the engine, the better use of the chemical bond energy you are able to use, so this discussion about transmissions, engines, etc are all a part of the bigger picture....

 

It's all pondering, its talking about these random tangents that sometimes weilds the most amazing discoveries... (just a thought)

[Moontanman]

well sort of, since the original question pertained to regenerating energy from electric drive trains, it has sparked a discussion on hybrid car design, and the fossil-fuel engine is a big part of such a car, the more efficient the engine, the better use of the chemical bond energy you are able to use, so this discussion about transmissions, engines, etc are all a part of the bigger picture....

 

It's all pondering, its talking about these random tangents that sometimes weilds the most amazing discoveries... (just a thought)

 

I don't think electric drive trains were part of the original question, Ryan must have given up completely, but I do look forward to more Motorcycle posts in the club:hyper:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

What if motion fueled an automobile? At first fuel would turn the motor but then a second motor run from the first would engage the capacitator to fuel the engine and the battery when the automobile ran out of gas.

Moonman-I don't think electric drive trains were part of the original question,

Moonman-Come on guys, hasn't this strayed a ways from the original thread?

Uhhhhhhhm....yeah.......you alright mate?

 

Alex-Btw, high comp pistons means that they increased the stroke, perhaps inderectly, but most certainly, otherwise how do you increase compression

You make the combustion chamber smaller in the case of high comp. pistons they are taller above the pin. You can also use longer rods if you have the deck space or last but not least shave the head.

[freeztar]

I've enjoyed following this thread but feel that the topic has drifted a bit. Don't get me wrong, the discussion has been great! Perhaps it might be even better if it were placed in a more specific thread. :eek_big:

 

I get the impression from Ryan's initial post that a self-propelling engine design was being considered. Several people have pointed out how it's very difficult, if not impossible/impractical, to retrieve spent energy. Hence, the original claim of "motion from motion" has been extensively reviewed. Or maybe it hasn't? In any case, it might be better to place discussions of engine mods to achieve greater fuel efficiencies into its own thread, imho.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

What if motion fueled an automobile? At first fuel would turn the motor but then a second motor run from the first would engage the capacitator to fuel the engine and the battery when the automobile ran out of gas.

 

Way ahead of you Freezy but first above is the first post there is a mention of gas therefore he's basicaly talking about a hybrid...which has been covered...Is directly related to power output of engines...and has even been approached as an

electric with regenerative braking exhaustively...and now as the environment here has turned hostile....I say Fk it! did you see my post pertaining to electromotive efficiency?!? I killed an hour and a half on that bugger only to be blasted for taking a breather and a moment to respond to a friend in the next post.

 

All right folks you don't like what you've read so far...You've got a choice find another thread more suiting or better yet contribute!!!!!!!

As for me I'm outa here...It just aint worth the agrivation.

[freeztar]

Way ahead of you Freezy but first above is the first post there is a mention of gas therefore he's basicaly talking about a hybrid...which has been covered...Is directly related to power output of engines...and has even been approached as an

electric with regenerative braking exhaustively...and now as the environment here has turned hostile....I say Fk it! did you see my post pertaining to electromotive efficiency?!? I killed an hour and a half on that bugger only to be blasted for taking a breather and a moment to respond to a friend in the next post.

 

All right folks you don't like what you've read so far...You've got a choice find another thread more suiting or better yet contribute!!!!!!!

As for me I'm outa here...It just aint worth the agrivation.

 

Whoa dude!

I was not being hostile. :eek_big:

 

I'm unaware of this hostility you speak of, but if it is bothering you, contact one of the mods.

 

There's absolutely no reason for anyone to be hostile in this thread. This is a great thread and I'd hate to see any of the content given thus far go by the wayside or become unproductive.

 

I was merely throwing my opinion out there and seeing what the people involved in the thread thought. ;)

[alexander]

You make the combustion chamber smaller in the case of high comp. pistons they are taller above the pin. You can also use longer rods if you have the deck space or last but not least shave the head.

Yes that is the new nick name i am giving you :eek_big: hope you like it, its really close to Mr T and he was just uber cool ;)

 

Oh, but on that quote, which is your basic stroke kit. The rods will increase the distance the piston travels, aka stroke, and the high comp piston (and i've installed a few of those in my time at the shop :xx: ) are yeah, generally thicker on top to decrease the amount of space in the cylinder thus increasing the compression even more :)... i know what you were saying though.

 

I don't think electric drive trains were part of the original question

oh come on, they were some of the earlier electric modes of transportation, and you know what they say, you gotta look into the past, to see the future ;) (or maybe i just made that up)

 

And yeah the neg.

Oh trust me i dont really look into it, if it was anything that was justifyable or pertained to me doing something wrong (though it may have seemed like i was de-railing or something) was certainly not intended to be so, anyone who has read my other correspondances of such content would generally know, but whatever, whoever that person is (and i have a feeling you will read this at some point), know, i still respect your oppinion, value your inputs and still look up to you, as i did 3 years ago.

 

I get the impression from Ryan's initial post that a self-propelling engine design was being considered. Several people have pointed out how it's very difficult, if not impossible/impractical, to retrieve spent energy. Hence, the original claim of "motion from motion" has been extensively reviewed.

freezy, i feel what you are saying, and i see your points. I feel though we have discussed that topic and i think it sparked a discussion on another one. Though i would rarely do so, i do agree that it should be split into a different topic, BUT, from prior experience, we'd have to close the discussion on this one, or else we will get yet another one of those threads like we did on the scientific notation (if you recall). It was such a mess after the split, i didnt know which one to post in and eventually gave up... :( but i care about this discussion more, because as always i learn more and i ponder more about this stuff, and its fun.

 

Oh really quickly too, um, if we were less busy discussing how this thread went a little off topic (though in the context of the topic) and contributed, maybe we would have been back on the track to ways to recover energy from car motion...

 

Ok, back to recovering power from motion, or some other means of doing that:

 

I have formed some ideas since my previous posts. First of all, if you try to recover energy from motion, to the point of attempting to propell the car afterwards, we have agreed, it aint gonna be worth it, the laws of mechanical and electromagnetic efficiency simply do not allow for that, but in conventional ways. Break regeneration is a good start, and photovoltaic paint may be another way to generate power on the run, a hood cover made from the thermovoltaic material will also provide a way to generate power from heat lost by the engine, but we need more, as Jeremy Clarkston said, "we need more bigger stuff".

I think that the idea with building stuff into the axles is not all that bad, problem is, you are trying to derive too much power from that. What should happen is a set of really simple coils built into the wheel, small, electromagnetic drag-wise, almost negligeable, weight-wise, also nearly there, really tiny generators, such as ones built into small wind mills, perhaps even so small that the ones out of mock-up and scaled models of wind mills, built into the weels of the car. The purpose of them will not however be to charge the onboard batteries, no, they will simply take over the power needed to run the car, or well, feed a battery that is otherwise not a part of the main system. If you generate enough power to power your electric steering, computer, lights, gages, and all the other nifty accessories on the new cars, which in all reality is not that much power, perhaps in the end you may increase the final efficiency of the system. problem becomes, you are complicating it, by a lot, you are adding wires, and an inverter, so what would need to be done is to build this into already built infrastructure of the car, or make it really simple stupid.

I think the physical design of the car needs to be compartmentalized, car needs to be broken into a couple of dozen areas, each that will have its own microsystem, and all those things working together would make it into the car. To make smarter cars, we may simply turn to what the AV industry has been taking advantage of. Microprocessors, but not one giant computer, no, small microprocessor angled at doing their own thing, with a really insignifficant center node, you should now have a more complex, but at the same time simpler, more reliable system of the car. You could then spread your power sources, to better spread the weight of the car, as well as decreasing the amount of wiring, and hopefully decreasing weight and power needs of the onboard systems...

 

just give that some thought for now...

[ryan2006]

Sorry people, I had a stint in the hospital everything is allright though so don't worry. Now Moontanman and I were talking about friction slowing everything down and I don't buy that because the sun comes up and the sun goes down and everthing in this universe and to infinity is moving. Now while I was in the hospital I had given some thought to E=mc2.

 

Mass or a vehicle traveling on a wave of light traveling at 186,000miles/sec2 will turn into energy. But what if your car traveling on the motion of the vehicle carried the it 1 mile. Surely friction could be overcome, but how? What about using waste heat from the turning of an electromagnetic motor and also I am not ruling out the fact that it may just turn out to be a vehicle that runs solely on electricity. Hybrid because of the infrastructure and the way things are currently set up. Waste heat from the friction?

[Moontanman]

Sorry people, I had a stint in the hospital everything is allright though so don't worry. Now Moontanman and I were talking about friction slowing everything down and I don't buy that because the sun comes up and the sun goes down and everthing in this universe and to infinity is moving. Now while I was in the hospital I had given some thought to E=mc2.

 

Just because the sun come up and goes down doesn't mean it's perpetual motion. Eventually even that motion will stop.

 

Mass or a vehicle traveling on a wave of light traveling at 186,000miles/sec2 will turn into energy. But what if your car traveling on the motion of the vehicle carried the it 1 mile. Surely friction could be overcome, but how? What about using waste heat from the turning of an electromagnetic motor and also I am not ruling out the fact that it may just turn out to be a vehicle that runs solely on electricity. Hybrid because of the infrastructure and the way things are currently set up. Waste heat from the friction?

 

No matter how hard you try you cannot exceed the speed of light by simple acceleration. No matter how close to the speed of light you get friction will always slow you back down. And no matter how hard you try you cannot get more energy out of a motor than you put in it or even break even. (or even come close for that matter) There is a limit to how much power you can get from waste heat or from motion or any other source. An electric motor needs power to run, a generator needs power to generate. there is always a net loss of power, never a gain and never break even. the best you can do is work toward the best efficiency possible with your power source. that will always be less than 100% usually much less than 100%