Pedophilia In America

[lindagarrette]

Yes, the latter.[women sexually molesting boys] I think there are many more cases than we know of. But I cannot back that up with hard evidence.

I would think the word rarely would apply. 99% of reported sex abusers are men. Even if a few really oddball women crept into that statistic, it wouldn't change much. This is a physical act, remember. Male territory.

[Fishteacher73]

Females tend to work on much more psychological level when dealing with others (In school yards females use popularity as a tool of oppression and bullying as opposed to physical threat). Perhaps much like a pedophile "grooms" his victim, young males are "groomed" by females and do not really realize the manipulation or abuse, and therfeore it is not reported.

As lindagarrette pointed out that rape is predominantly a male "territorial" and "power" trip so there may be a "undisclosed" under-current of the female sexual predator, but it still probably a reasonably insignificant porportion of the over-all total.

[Queso]

imagine that....

[C1ay]

Having pedophiliac urges does not make a person a pedophile. ACTING on those urges does. Whether pre-disposed or not, it's the consummation of those urges or desires that makes this a crime. It's no different than wanting to kill someone. You're not a murderer until you actually KILL the person. You CHOOSE to become a murderer, regardless of how much rage may be passed on in your genes.

 

So you are claiming that no one suffers irresistable urges because of mental defects that may or may not have genetic causes. Some murderers are so insane they don't even know they've killed someone, much less that it was their choice to do so or not. Some do not even have the mental capacity to feel remorse for their actions. You are implying that all murderers and pedophiles do so by choice because they simply choose not to resist their urges. Can you back that up with some kind of conclusive proof? All I have said is that I believe some of them deserve the benefit of the doubt. I did not say their behavior should be excused or tolerated. I did say they were unfit for society. All this means though is that I believe some of them deserve medical treatment in an institution as opposed to punitive treatment in a prison. Why does this shock you so?

[IrishEyes]

I would think the word rarely would apply. 99% of reported sex abusers are men. Even if a few really oddball women crept into that statistic, it wouldn't change much. This is a physical act, remember. Male territory.

I just can't get over this attitude. I don't mean it's just you, linda. It seems very prevalent here. Am I just deluded into thinking that men are not the only ones that sexually abuse children, or is there really a bias against women being sexual abusers? Why would a 'physcial act' automatically indicate that it was a man?

 

I guess I'm troubled because I know men that were 'victims of sexual abuse', and displayed many of the same behaviors as abused women (promiscuity, sexual dysfunction, low self-esteem) but they rarely classify the act(s) as abuse. When a young boy is exposed to sex by an older female, is that not abuse? I guess I'm not seeing the difference between an 18 year old girl having sex with a 12 year old boy, and the reverse. Both would be 'wrong', wouldn't they? Or would that just be one very lucky 12 year old boy??? And is there a difference if a woman exposes a younger boy to sex, or if he is exposed to sex by a man?

[Fishteacher73]

I think part of this comes from our attitudes in our current society. How accepting is our society a "man" being abused by a female? Boys don't cry, right? (Not that I profess these sentiments, but you must look at how society as a whole normaly reacts to such things, right or wrong.) I think part of the issue also relates back to an earlier post of mine:

 

1) Stigamtizing the event. By telling the individual that they are a "victim" and have been "psychologically scarred" to some degree becomes a self fulfilliong prophecy. In some societies it was an accepted norm (ancient Greece). I think paralles could be drawn to the subjucation of women in various parts of the world. Some of the staunchest support for these systems comes from the women in the situation itself. Not that I support these ideals, but for some, the vicimization of the action in some cases causes much more of the personal trauma that the act itself.

[IrishEyes]

So you are claiming that no one suffers irresistable urges because of mental defects that may or may not have genetic causes.

Irresistable urges? Are there really such things? I am having a very difficult time getting my mind around the concept of an irresistable urge. I have 'urges' all the time. Whether or not I act on those urges is the issue.

Some murderers are so insane they don't even know they've killed someone, much less that it was their choice to do so or not. Some do not even have the mental capacity to feel remorse for their actions.

You are talking about people with severe mental disorders, right? Some type of medically classifiable disease?

You are implying that all murderers and pedophiles do so by choice because they simply choose not to resist their urges. Can you back that up with some kind of conclusive proof?

I am saying that people make choices all the time. I can make a choice to kill you or not. What I choose will determine if I become a murderer. Can I back it up with conclusive evidence? Well, I haven't killed anybody lately, so I'm not a murderer. That's always apt to change though... :o

All I have said is that I believe some of them deserve the benefit of the doubt. I did not say their behavior should be excused or tolerated. I did say they were unfit for society. All this means though is that I believe some of them deserve medical treatment in an institution as opposed to punitive treatment in a prison. Why does this shock you so?

You're right, of course. It's really wrong for me to make a blanket statement that people are responsible for their actions, regardless of if they are genetcially challenged or mentally incapacitated or not. :xparty: What do you mean by 'some of them deserve the benefit of the doubt'. If they are caught molesting a child, where does 'doubt' come in? What is there to doubt? I agree that they are unfit for society though.

 

I need to think about what you are saying a bit more though. The idea of sex offenders being re-habilitated is ridiculous to me. I know that sounds very harsh and unforgiving, and it is. But that's how I feel. The whole discussion reminds me of "Clockwork Orange". Good idea, that rehabilitation. But it didn't work all that well in the end. Of course, it WAS just a movie... :D

[Fishteacher73]

Off thread and tangental, but I thought I might bring it up. :D

 

l. The whole discussion reminds me of "Clockwork Orange". Good idea, that rehabilitation. But it didn't work all that well in the end. Of course, it WAS just a movie... :o

 

What Burgess was saying with this book is that good is meaningless without evil. If you are incapable of being evil then being good is the only alternative. It is not a volitional choice. Actions become essentially robotic and humanless. (I.e a Clockwork Orange. A mechanical orange may look like an orange, but it usless in what an orange is for, just as a human incapable of chosing between right and wrong is just a representaion of a man).

[IrishEyes]

I think part of this comes from our attitudes in our current society. How accepting is our society a "man" being abused by a female? Boys don't cry, right? (Not that I profess these sentiments, but you must look at how society as a whole normaly reacts to such things, right or wrong.) I think part of the issue also relates back to an earlier post of mine:

I read your earlier post, and I think it may be partially correct - being called a victim can sometimes make it worse. However, whether or not it is called 'abuse', or the child recognizes/identifies it as such in their own minds, these 'victims' will often display/exhibit certain behaviors that can be attributed to abuse. This often happens regardless of what anyone tells the child.

 

From: http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06a1_incest.html

 

"The time when one could deny that sexual seduction is extremely traumatic for children appears to have ended. The more studies that come out on the effects of childhood sexual abuse, the more severe the damage is found to be. The flood of books and articles documenting the emotional problems of victims both in childhood and in later life has to be read in detail to appreciate the profound sense of betrayal and the terrifying fears felt by the child, so that even single incidents have the power to permanently ravage their lives. Severe somatic reactions, depersonalization, self-hatred, hysterical seizures, depression, borderline personality formation, promiscuity, sexual dysfunctions, suicide, self-mutilation, night terrors and flashbacks, multiple personalities, post-traumatic stress disorders, delinquency, bulemia, and the overall stunting of feelings and capacities have all been documented - the earlier and the more often the abuse, the worse the damage."

[IrishEyes]

(I.e a Clockwork Orange. A mechanical orange may look like an orange, but it usless in what an orange is for, just as a human incapable of chosing between right and wrong is just a representaion of a man).

 

What does this say about people being 'rehabilitated'? Does rehabilitation count as removing the choice? If a person is medicated, or surgically altered, to control their urges, is this humane? Or is it taking away their choice to make their own decisions? And do we, as a society, have the right to do this (rehabilitate) to people?

[Fishteacher73]

I agree, I was not trying to imply that all cases were viable examples of the vicitmization, just that some I feel are, or at least it amplifies the damage done by the physical act..

 

Psychiatry has take huge leaps from phrenology to read the increadible conststancies in behavors of individuals that exhibit harmful abberant behavir. On top of that, early indicators are being realized that could possibly identify these people allow them to get the help they need to lead a productive existence.

[Fishteacher73]

What does this say about people being 'rehabilitated'? Does rehabilitation count as removing the choice? If a person is medicated, or surgically altered, to control their urges, is this humane? Or is it taking away their choice to make their own decisions? And do we, as a society, have the right to do this (rehabilitate) to people?

 

 

A good side-thread, possibly move it to social sciences or philosophy?

[IrishEyes]

Psychiatry has take huge leaps from phrenology

But OH, didn't that sound like it should work??? :D

[IrishEyes]

A good side-thread, possibly move it to social sciences or philosophy?

Please, feel free to do so. Of course, I've exceeded my Hypography limit for the day already, but I also know I will make the choice to return here again later this evening. Predetermination? Predisposition? Bad genes (or jeans)? Nah...I'm just weak. But hey, I can always blame it on Tormod, for creating such a fun place to hang out instead of doing homework...

Until then, enjoy!!

[C1ay]

Irresistable urges? Are there really such things? I am having a very difficult time getting my mind around the concept of an irresistable urge. I have 'urges' all the time. Whether or not I act on those urges is the issue.

 

You are talking about people with severe mental disorders, right? Some type of medically classifiable disease?

 

I am saying that people make choices all the time. I can make a choice to kill you or not. What I choose will determine if I become a murderer. Can I back it up with conclusive evidence? Well, I haven't killed anybody lately, so I'm not a murderer. That's always apt to change though... :o

 

You're right, of course. It's really wrong for me to make a blanket statement that people are responsible for their actions, regardless of if they are genetcially challenged or mentally incapacitated or not. :xparty: What do you mean by 'some of them deserve the benefit of the doubt'. If they are caught molesting a child, where does 'doubt' come in? What is there to doubt? I agree that they are unfit for society though.

 

I need to think about what you are saying a bit more though. The idea of sex offenders being re-habilitated is ridiculous to me. I know that sounds very harsh and unforgiving, and it is. But that's how I feel. The whole discussion reminds me of "Clockwork Orange". Good idea, that rehabilitation. But it didn't work all that well in the end. Of course, it WAS just a movie... :D

 

 

I think you are simply trying to see things from the point of view of the normal person that you are. These people are not normal so it would be hard for you or me to see things from their perspective. Look at Charles Manson, he thinks he is God. I cannot see his point of view but I can imagine it and I can understand how there can be many things going on in his mind that we cannot understand, bacause we are not him. There is no doubt that a child has been molested if someone is caught molesting them, but there could be a reasonable doubt as to why they have done so.

 

FWIW, I'm really not trying to argue with you or step on your toes. I'm only trying to help you see some of the possibilities for these people to be the way they are, not to excuse the way they are.

 

Here's an interesting article that may help to support my vision. It seems a German zoo is having trouble getting 6 male penguins to mate with some females that were brought in. It seems these particular penguins are gay. I would guess that it is a result of nature and not choice that has caused this. What do you think?

[IrishEyes]

I think you are simply trying to see things from the point of view of the normal person that you are. These people are not normal so it would be hard for you or me to see things from their perspective. Look at Charles Manson, he thinks he is God. I cannot see his point of view but I can imagine it and I can understand how there can be many things going on in his mind that we cannot understand, bacause we are not him. There is no doubt that a child has been molested if someone is caught molesting them, but there could be a reasonable doubt as to why they have done so.

 

FWIW, I'm really not trying to argue with you or step on your toes. I'm only trying to help you see some of the possibilities for these people to be the way they are, not to excuse the way they are.

 

Here's an interesting article that may help to support my vision. It seems a German zoo is having trouble getting 6 male penguins to mate with some females that were brought in. It seems these particular penguins are gay. I would guess that it is a result of nature and not choice that has caused this. What do you think?

 

I'm normal? That's one of the strangest things things that has ever been said to me at these forums. Thanks, I think...

 

I'm not trying to fight with you either. I guess I don't understand why it matters 'why' these people are the way thay are. I also understand that you are not trying to excuse or defend them, but understand them. I don't fault you for that, I just guess I don't really understand the reason for it. No, that's not entirely true either. I can see a reason for it. I just don't think it's practical.

 

As for gay penguins... the article does not indicate whether or not these penguins were gay due to nature or not. I really don't think there is any way to determine that from this article. All it says is that a group of females were brought in, but the males remained faithful to their mates. We don't know if these males ever had any other contact with female penguins or not. Who's to say that they didn't like the new girls because they smelled funny? :D

[pgrmdave]

Almost all offenders of any crime are normal people who make bad decisions.