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Relativity and chaos


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#18 CHADS

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 05:46 PM

Light and speed of light create an interesting paradox. At the speed of light, with time totally dilated, there is no time for chaos. There is also no time for finite change. The question is, how can light red shift or do any of the other tricks we can make it do in the lab? It is not behaving like something that is moving at C, yet we know it is.



Einstiens space/time ... If space was warped like a mountain range ... The light must travel down the slopes and eventually get to us .... but it wants to travel straight to us like a bird over the ridges but it has to take the road .. the slopes .
The photon always wants the as the crow flies analogy but cant and this force causes the red shift becuase it is moving away and it wants to travel from one mountain top to us like the bird but takes the jaggered warped mountain path...

Simarlerly when it is moving toward us its also slightly moving as the crow flies aswell as traversing down the mountain towards us .... going in the same direction makes it blue shifted!

So with a Black hole it travels all the way down the mountain ...deep down the valley untill it reaches a point where its want to go as the crow flies is the same as its warp/space path and it freezes in the Black hole Event horizon.

#19 OldBill

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 05:53 PM

Wow! OK - That's it! I'm out......Bye.

#20 Overdog

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 06:16 PM

Einstiens space/time ... If space was warped like a mountain range ... The light must travel down the slopes and eventually get to us .... but it wants to travel straight to us like a bird over the ridges but it has to take the road .. the slopes .
The photon always wants the as the crow flies analogy but cant and this force causes the red shift becuase it is moving away and it wants to travel from one mountain top to us like the bird but takes the jaggered warped mountain path...

Simarlerly when it is moving toward us its also slightly moving as the crow flies aswell as traversing down the mountain towards us .... going in the same direction makes it blue shifted!

So with a Black hole it travels all the way down the mountain ...deep down the valley untill it reaches a point where its want to go as the crow flies is the same as its warp/space path and it freezes in the Black hole Event horizon.


Chads, I'm afraid your understanding of Einsteins theory is in need of serious review.

General relativity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#21 CHADS

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 07:58 PM

A photon in warped space travels through distorted space to the observer .... ok .... the Photon wants to get to the observer in a straight line not through the warpage of space ~ that is why you see red/blue shift becuse the photon has to traverse but dosnt want to take the long way.

#22 Overdog

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 08:26 PM

A photon in warped space travels through distorted space to the observer .... ok .... the Photon wants to get to the observer in a straight line not through the warpage of space ~ that is why you see red/blue shift becuse the photon has to traverse but dosnt want to take the long way.


Well, remember that light has properties of particles AND properties of waves. When we are talking about the redshift, we are talking about light as a wave which has a frequency and a wavelength. As the wave travels through space over thousands of years, the wavelength gets stretched longer because of the universe expanding. Does that make sense?

Image:Wavelength.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Redshift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#23 CHADS

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:19 AM

Sorry people are leaving in disgust ... Obviously not a Proffessor.
Yes i understand .... thanks for not bailing out on me ....
The point im trying to make .. and im sorry for not making it clearer is that :

The Light wave You Describe That becomes Red/Blue Shifted over Thousands of Years because of expansion .. I can appreciate.

Now a Rock travaling through An exspanding space that reaches us ... is still a rock its not red/blue shifted. My point is that the Waves/Photon want to travel in a single direction not 3 dimensions ... just one or 2d flat space ...

The is why you see shifts .. becuase of the properties in light . A Rock cannot redshift .

I was Answering HydrogenBonds Questions:
1.How Do you get red shift at infinite dialation?
2.How does it create the Wonderful Things in the lab?

Hope this gives you a different Perspective HydrogenBond.

Please Tell me if my interperatation fails Anywhere and Please bare with me:

Draw a large Circle on paper this is the passage of time on earth .
Draw a smaller Circle inside this large circle and this is the passage of time at 99.9% Speed of light.
Now a Clock moving in the small circle at 99.9% of c for 3 years would return to the Larger Earth Circle and The comparson in Time Dialation would be 210years on earth clock for every 3 years on the clock at 99.9% speed of light!

This is the crucial Point!! Now actually at c You cant draw a smaller circle ... You must draw a dot in the centre of the small circle .. which is an abstract 1 dimensional point .

If you draw this out on paper and try to grasp what i have said you will see that Light Waves Want to travel in 1 dimension and if they never they couldnt red shift They would be like rocks in space.
Please anyone challenge me on this .. I dont like making people leave in disgust.

This should explain all the Wonderful things you see in the lab.

#24 Overdog

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:29 AM

The is why you see shifts .. becuase of the properties in light . A Rock cannot redshift .


Are you sure about that?

Through the work of Albert Einstein, Louis de Broglie and many others, current scientific theory holds that all particles also have a wave nature.[1] This phenomenon has been verified not only for elementary particles, but also for compound particles like atoms and even molecules. In fact, according to traditional formulations of non-relativistic quantum mechanics, wave–particle duality applies to all objects, even macroscopic ones; we can't detect wave properties of macroscopic objects due to their small wavelengths.[2]


Wave–particle duality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#25 CHADS

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:36 AM

Please Educate me Overdog ,... thats why i am here ... Can you explain why the Interpretation is Wrong ?.. and thanks again for being civil.
Rocks do have wave propreties in thier constiuents but i hear the photon is massless.When a rock arrives at earth it dosnt seem stretched or shrunk It is the source and wants to traval towards its own centres toward c.
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#26 Overdog

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:57 AM

Please Educate me Overdog ,... thats why i am here ... Can you explain why the Interpretation is Wrong ?.. and thanks again for being civil.


I appreciate that you are here to learn. That's why I'm here, too.

I think what the current theory is saying is that the rock does have both a particle and wave nature, just like the photons in light. It's just that with large objects like a rock, the wavlength is so short that we currently don't have the technology to actually measure it. But we have been able to measure it in smaller objects, such as atoms and molecules.

So, we are able to measure the redshift in light simply because it has a much lower frequency than the rock to begin with. But if we had the technology, we would see that the frequency of the rock is stretched out by the expansion of the universe as well.

#27 Overdog

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 07:15 AM

Here's a couple more things you can check out...

Edwin Hubble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Expanding Universe

#28 Little Bang

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 12:05 PM

Time dilation is seen only to an observer outside the frame of reference. Example, if I have two clocks set to the same time and I take one into orbit then i can see that the one on the ground is running slower than mine. I'm outside the ground clock's frame of reference.

#29 Jon13

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 01:04 PM

um, it's in it's really basic stage, so i can't offer any evidence to support this, unfortunately, but my previous post was incorrectly stated. here's how it's supposed to be. since achieving the speed of light is impossible, the object, would have to be transfered to another plane of exsistence. briefly. once again, this is barely in my commitee's agenda.

#30 CHADS

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 11:09 AM

Understandig cosmic expansion ... So there is a natural red shift tendancy?

Rocks cant travel at c.

My point was in understanding relativity and space time after revision remains the same :
Space is Essentailly 1 dimensional (c and the absence of all gravity) Are 1 dimensional and time makes it 2 dimensional ....... Without the Quality of 1 d space then you would not see Red shift.

Atoms making a rock make 3d space ..... Their constituents Want to travel at c (1d) always but cannot .... and it is this Direction toward the 1 dimensional that makes gravity.

Abeit the wave properties of particles differ the fundemental urge is toward the 1d is the same..... if you remove the time component from the wave you are left with a displacement component and distance travelled component that cant change.
C is 1 dimensional it dosnt move its a constant value that is Absolute.
The Tendancy is to believe that c moves quick but it dosnt move at all its just a reference.
Light moving through a heavier medium Is still c (1d) but its the mediums distortion in 3d that slows down the speed of the light but it dosnt slow down C.

What I argue with you is that if the particles/Waves never wanted to diverge on a 1d point© then redshift could not Occur and neither the wonderful things you see in the lab.

If it didnt want to move toward a 1d point then All could move at C through any medium and there would be no red shift just a constant timeless equilibruim or You could measure C in two similar mediums to be different values.

Even the expanding universe(cosmic Expansion) is expanding into a 1d point .