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Comparing Religious and Scientific beliefs on how the universe was created...Need Help Urgently!!


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Close indeed, though this Gaia theory deals more with the self-regulating system of the earth itself. The 2 work hand in hand with each other; homeostasis being one of the main reqirements to life, while a coputation-like 'thought' process could be happening in conjunction.

 

The saline content of the ocean part did bother me though; the ocean has chaged it's salt levels a bit over the last few million years. In primordials days, the evidence points to an ocean more like the plasma of our own bloodstreams.

 

Pure somantics though

 

Originally posted by: deamonstar

you've just reminded me of a similar 'theory' that I came up with when I was in early grade school... hmmm... could be that there is some sort of connection here.

 

Really? Care to elaborate? I am many things, but I cannot yet read minds across the digital relm.

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It is off topic for this thread, but not for these forums.

 

My advice would be: stay curious and read as much as you feel like! And participate in our forums (and others) even if people disagree with you...the only way to learn is to soak up what you can, think about things, and then discuss your ideas with others. If you then find out you were wrong, you will learn more about your feelings about things and what they are based on.

 

Nobody can sit around reading books all the time. But like deamonstar writes, it takes time to understand what you learn. But within that statement is a hidden truth: the pleasure of finding things out is enormous.

 

(And that, in fact is a great book: "The pleasure of finding things out" by Richard Feynman, possibly the greatest physicist ever. Read it!).

 

Tormod

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Hi,

 

Interesting thread.

 

There's two things I've always wondered in relation to this topic:

 

1. What type of discovery, cosmologically speaking, would be of a level to disprove religion as a concept; is there ever likely to be such a discovery, or would 'faith' overrule even the most unequivocal science.

 

and...

 

2. With the viewing of galaxies within 400 million years of the Big Bang's epicenter, is it likely we're moving into a period of modern time that we will see what came before the Big Bang and would you think that would be likely to affect religion as we know it.

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Well, this will of course be my personal view:

 

1) I don't think it is possible to disprove religion. Faith is too strong, and too deep-rooted in human culture. It might "disprove" certain *aspects* of religion, like creation myths or certain dogma.

 

2) That we will be able to see beyond the Big Bang is not likely, but that we might begin to understand what happened before it is not impossible (although many cosmologists claim so). "Religion" is too wide a concept - I don't think many people connect the Big Bang with their own theory of (religious) creation.

 

Tormod

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Yeah, there's a viewpoint I read that said (and I'll paraphrase loosely, if I may) that the otherside of the Big Bang (or even another cosmos) would be invisible to us as it would be on the otherside of our cosmic horizon, where the closer you get to the epicenter (or edge), the galaxies would appear to be moving away from us at ever-increasing speed, so that before we even see the focal point of the Big Bang, they would reach light speed and become invisible from our perspective.

 

As for religion being disproven, there has to be some sort of science that we cannot yet imagine that would relegate this faith business to backroom crackpot status. Yeah, fair enough, if there is a supreme being, I'll go to church on Sunday, but really, do supreme beings give half a damn whether we seek absolution for our sins on a regular basis?

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Originally posted by: lindagarrette

Religion is a matter of faith and has nothing to do with science. It isn't possible to prove there is no god but a god could easily prove there is a god.

 

 

To complete the circle on that, if a 'god' were to make themselves known, would religion not cease to exist, as what is religion other than faith in the unknown?

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  • 2 weeks later...

First of all, I would like to say, "Whooo Hoooo!"

It's nice to have found a website wherein the participants appear to be THINKING people. Plus, the broad range of topics covered, are just the sort of things I like to read, learn and contemplate.

 

It's not unusual for man to question religion. It's in our very nature. While religion worldwide has ALWAYS been associated with CONTROL over people (the believers). It's main function, as a component of our minds... is to explain things OUTSIDE our realm of understanding. It quite naturally follows, that as science and our understanding of the cosmos improves, more and more people will abandon the ignorance of religion for a REAL bite from the tree of knowledge.

 

One problem I see for our transatory generation (one moving from religion based to more fact based belief systems) is one I myself can sometimes feel inside. It is very difficult to discard a belief system. When I die... what if I'm wrong? What if it REALLY is like they've told us, and now I'm screwed? As unfounded as that fear should be, it's very real for those struggling to break the oppressive indoctrinations of ANY religious society.

 

So, despite the fact that I, and MANY others simply can NOT blindly believe in established religions, there is an innate desire to formulate postulates concerning the (currently) unknowable mysteries of the universe. Even though I firmly believe in the most well established scientific conclusions, I still have a deep human desire to believe that there is some unknown, unseen "force" if you will, that binds the cosmos and forms order from chaos. The masses want to know that there is meaning to the world.

 

For example, one concept I've been tossing around in my mind, is the relationship between an ACTUAL spatial 4th dimensional universe and our 3D existence within it.

Take a moment to contemplate how absolutely MAGICAL and MIRACULOUS an encounter with a spatial 4th dimension would be. Many of our extraperceptual anecdotal myth stories could be explained by such an encounter.

Do I believe that to be true? Not yet, if ever... But, sometimes it's just fun to formulate what I refer to as "pretty ideas"... ones without much scientific basis, but have an element of piecing together some of our unanswered questions. I see things such as the Gaian idea falling into the same category. They're pretty on the surface, but currently unprovable. Just fun stuff to think about.

 

Bottom line point. I believe it's healthy and VERY HUMAN to ask the questions and have personal, if not public beliefs in "something more". We are an inquisitive species. We NEED to KNOW the answers to our questions. Barring that... we'll make 'em up.

 

Futures

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I too have pondered these things. It is hard for myself to commit to current "popular" religous followings due to the fact that most of it (at least the old world religons) originated as a way to control people through fear. How can you commit to a religon which supposivley is ment to teach love and compassion when some of the worst genocides and wars have been committed in the name of religon? Doesn't make sense! The cathloic followers alone slaughtered tens of thousands of people for their religous beliefs in order make people conform to those beliefs so theywould be more easily controlled. I also believe that most religon stems from trying to explain something that we up to this point do not understand. Almost all cultures in this world have some form of belief system that explains "existance" for them. All of these cannot be right...they are just simply everyones unique way of explaining things. So because of these things I have a hard very hard time believing whole-heartadly in any religous based belief system.

 

So what about the proof? Is there any real proof that any one religon it right in all their beliefs? Take the bible- it was written long long ago and passed through many hands and translated many many times. It has also been studied more extensivley than most thigs but is the "god" part factual? It could be just a complation of stories or events that are significant and amazing. Is it proof of the existance of that God? I believe that someone called jesus did exist and he was very spiritual and understood his spirituallity far beyond others of his time and he probally did some amazing things that people wrote about but was he the only son of what the bible deems to be God?

 

I believe in a greater energy that we are able to harness but not yet able to understand. It's true that the power of prayer and meditation have been shown to accomplish some amazing things but I think that this is the way we have learned to harness the "universal energy". Most are just not open-minded enough to change their belief system or to accept another theory. We are all part of one big energy system and the law states "energy can never be lost or destroyed" so therefore why cant our thought (prayer and meditation) energy simply be the factor that makes things like "miracles" happen? Afterall all of that energy put into thought has to go somewhere.

 

As for the 4th dimension thing, I have also considered this. I actually think that there could be a 4th. I think it could possibly be a higher level of energy that we don't understand yet. It is a very intresting thing to ponder

 

Futures--I'm glad you found this site are are happy to talk to THINKING people, I too share your sentiments.

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Futures, welcome to our forums and thank you for the compliments. There are lots of thinking people here (although they don't always think straight ).

 

I agree with you - it is difficult for a lot of people to break the chains of religion. Yet there are lots of people who regard this problem the other way - how to get as many people under the wings of their particular faith.

 

I am always surprised by people who feel pity for non-believers because we must "lack" something. But I totally agree with you - to be human is to ponder the questions which are raised by mere existence. That is why I love cosmology...

 

Your 4th dimension pondering is good for your brain and I think you will find that similar issues have been discussed before!

 

Tormod

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Tinny - considering that there are thousands of different faiths in this world, do you really think it is valid to ask people to try out each and every one of them in order to be able to discuss them?

 

One cannot prove a religion false. That is like saying "chocolate does not taste good". It will be true to some, and false to others.

 

And...I think this discussion is about to be moved to the philosophy section. What do you folks think - should we close this thread and move on?

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Well, try the major ones first. christianity, islam, buddha, hindu, juda etc. They may not be proven false objectively though, but through deep understanding of them, one can make an accurate and easy decision. like the concepts of god, consistency/contradictions in religious texts, the way of life, compatibility with science, the character/behaviour of its true believers, the absoluteness (encompassing everything, spiritually, mentally, physically) of the faith.

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This thread is really straying off topic now...OP5 started a GOD discussion in philosophy - I suggest those who want to follow this up checks it out.

 

This thread is about "Comparing Religious and Scientific beliefs on how the universe was created". I think we are very far from answering that question now.

 

Probably a good thing, though...

 

Tormod

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I agree that we should stick to the subject of how the universe was created. I would like also to explane the way the Holy Quran has stated the creation of the universe.

 

In Surah Al-Anbiya it is clearly stated that "the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We clove them asunder," (Al-Anbiya,' The Prophets, x:x:I: 29). The sky which was an integral part of this single nucleus was in a gaseous state in accordance with the Qur'anic Verse 11 in Surah. Fussilat (XLI): "Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke".

 

I should point out that the Quran was revealed 1400 yeas ago and it had to be understod by the people of that time. It also can not contradict any of the sceintific facts that we find in our time or in the future.

I would like to recomend the following site for more information:

 

http://www.islamset.com/sc/index.html

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