bumab Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 I've been reading the posts for quite a while, and have been thouroughly entertained! I've got a thought prehaps someone could straighten out... Taking a few statements:e=mc^2 is true, and has always been truethe law of conservation of energy is true, and has always been truen If the amount of mass in the universe has changed over time, from ~0 at the big bang (all energy) to now, and continues to change because of fusion, fission, etc., and the overall energy of the universe has remained constant (LCE), then c must have changed in order to keep the equation true (i.e. keeping E constant) basically, it's a simple thing, so i feel that i must be missing something basic. :hyper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted February 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Taking the universe as a whole, remember. Not isolated systems where a VSL is accounted for by relativity, but the whole universe, which is only relative to itself, i guess. so AS A WHOLE, the speed of light should be changing, right? (but most think it's not.... hmmm....) :hyper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Taking the universe as a whole, remember. Not isolated systems where a VSL is accounted for by relativity, but the whole universe, which is only relative to itself, i guess. so AS A WHOLE, the speed of light should be changing, right? (but most think it's not.... hmmm....) :hyper:bumab, I'll answer both posts here.1. For a closed universe the sum of all matter and energy would be constant. For anopen universe (or one with wormholes from elsewhere), matter/energy can be added. 2. Leaving VSL aside for the moment, the notion of hyperinflation (which appears toexceed speed of light) can be thought of independent of a reference frame and thereforedoes not need adhere to SR. There is a physicist from England who is the protaganist onthe VSL theory. He has a book out. I have it and have yet to read it. :D So I am unableto comment. Maddog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 For an open universe (or one with wormholes from elsewhere), matter/energy can be added. Excuse me, I have never read or heard about any cosmological model where mass/energy can be added to the system. Could you please expound upon these ideas or provide proper references? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Excuse me, I have never read or heard about any cosmological model where mass/energy can be added to the system. Could you please expound upon these ideas or provide proper references?A physicist at CalTech, Kip Thorne has speculated that wormholes can be allowed. Thisis because GR allows for them. Hawking has said that causality would violated if bothsides were within the same universe. Thus taking both people at face value a "white"wormhole would come from elsewhere. I am not aware if a whole comology has beenformed from this thought problem. Doesn't say it is true, just a summary of their speculation as captured from articles from New Scientist and Physics Today within thelast year. You are welcome to look it up. Sorry, I don't have exact dates... Try lastsummer. :hyper: Maddog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDMclean Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 I can't give refrence 'spect maybe Steven Hawking but In a universal model where we have either wormholes or whiteholes coming from another universe then one can "add" Mass-Energy to the the host universe. technically even then Mass-Energy is strictly conservered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 I can't give refrence 'spect maybe Steven Hawking but In a universal model where we have either wormholes or whiteholes coming from another universe then one can "add" Mass-Energy to the the host universe. technically even then Mass-Energy is strictly conservered.Wasn't implyin lack of conservation. Only to think about a mechanism to add mass orenergy to a universe once formed. Maddog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 bumab, I'll answer both posts here.1. For a closed universe the sum of all matter and energy would be constant. For anopen universe (or one with wormholes from elsewhere), matter/energy can be added. Maddog Yeah, so a constant speed of light over the entire universes history seems to imply it's not a closed universe... Inflation, I thought, was an entirely different matter used to explain the early universes grand expansion. VSL, in my understanding, is a different way to explain the same expansion we assume from the homogeneity of the universe (and other things). So, VSL is a competing theory (at least as far as expansion seems to go). But the argument I put forth seems to still be valid. Has anyone read that book? I've heard it's pretty well written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Which book are you talking about? There are a couple of books on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 I was talking about Faster then the Speed of Light, by João Magueijo... just came out, supposed to be pretty well written (from a writing standpoint), but I've not heard much good criticism of the theories yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 That book is 2 years old. I haven't read it, though, even though I really would like to. I have a reading list from hell so maybe I can fit it in someday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Did it?! Ha! Man, I'm behind on my reading as well. Probably why I have these questions.... :hyper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted February 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Back to the origional topic though... any thoughts on that statement I made? Does it imply an open universe, or is there something missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Back to the origional topic though... any thoughts on that statement I made? Does it imply an open universe, or is there something missing? I am probably barking up the wrong tree here, but anyway... If such a whitehole appeared in our universe, either mass or energy could be "added" to the universe. So, if, in the first case, additional mass is brought in, then there is no need for a change in the speed of light, just the total energy. But, if, in the second case, energy is brought in, then it would seem that an increase in the speed of light is necessary, but I think perhaps not. If mass and energy are interchangeable through this equation, then isn't an increased energy proportional to an increased mass given by the equation E/c²=m? So, essentially, it is the same process as just adding mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDMclean Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Bingo, Yahtzee, our survey says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 I was talking about Faster then the Speed of Light, by João Magueijo... just came out, supposed to be pretty well written (from a writing standpoint), but I've not heard much good criticism of the theories yet...That is the book I'm talking about. It is definitely on my reading list (I even have it heresomewhere... ;) ... ) I'm currently reading a book by David Bohm, a physicist who in 1980 came up with thenotion of a holographic universe. The name of the book is, "Wholeness and the ImplicateOrder". Just getting into the first chapter. I'm also going skiing all next week, inColorado. :( :hyper: So if you don't hear from me for awhile. That is why. I'll telleveryone what I think of this book once I get deeper. Later. :D Maddog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 I am probably barking up the wrong tree here, but anyway... If such a whitehole appeared in our universe, either mass or energy could be "added" to the universe. So, if, in the first case, additional mass is brought in, then there is no need for a change in the speed of light, just the total energy. But, if, in the second case, energy is brought in, then it would seem that an increase in the speed of light is necessary, but I think perhaps not. If mass and energy are interchangeable through this equation, then isn't an increased energy proportional to an increased mass given by the equation E/c²=m? So, essentially, it is the same process as just adding mass.That is essentially the way I understand it as well. However, this physicist from England,João Magueijo seems to have a different theory of VSL. As I understand from somemagazine interview that his theory another variation Inflationary period as created byGnuth back around 1980. I need to read the book already mentioned. :hyper: Maddog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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