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Illiteracy - it's the end of the world as we know it


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#35 Michaelangelica

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 12:51 AM

(5) Another point. The only reason we're negative about something is to make somebody feel inferior/ insecure, so that they buy your line/ product.

People do do this, in order to put another down so they can feel superior.
But is is not the only reason for feeling negative about something.
For example I feel "negative" about religious fundamentalism because I believe it is frequently mindless and destructive
I don't know how you would do a double-blind clinical study to see if my belief was in fact true.

(6) The reason anecdotal evidence isn't trusted in science is that it is one persons word and they could be lying/ deluded (wrong) in their assumption of what they experienced.


Yes but sometimes it is also very instructive. Often far more so than a controlled experiment.
A thousand experiments often never, or rarely, come together in a useful intellectual model we can use to understand and predict, especially when it comes to human behaviour.

The Case studies of Dr. R Sacks or R D Laing come to mind.

7 Lastly, it's all about time. The faster we run away from life, the less we accumulate in our fear and excitement (youth). The slower we go, the more we collect in knowledge and possessions (Bucking Bronco or long suffering (tolerant) settler.

I observe - I don't judge (emotionally categorize), therefore I learn (take on knowledge). Pioneers need to learn from their experiences (he travels fastest who travels empty).


Is it me, or are the posts on hypography becoming more obtuse?

So, any thoughts about how this relates to literacy or lack thereof?

PS
I just got this in the mail about kids and stress
FEATURE: HELPING KIDS COPE WITH STRESS
The kids are going back to school, which for some of them will be stressful. But rather than being a cause of anxiety, many primary schools are leading the way in teaching kids to deal with life's ups and downs. And the experts say that when schools and parents work together, even sensitive kids can learn to bounce back.
Helping children cope with stress - Health & Wellbeing

#36 paigetheoracle

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 11:46 AM

People do do this, in order to put another down so they can feel superior.
But is is not the only reason for feeling negative about something.
For example I feel "negative" about religious fundamentalism because I believe it is frequently mindless and destructive
I don't know how you would do a double-blind clinical study to see if my belief was in fact true.

(1) Too true, I was just on about the saleman angle as far as I know it.

Yes but sometimes it is also very instructive. Often far more so than a controlled experiment.
A thousand experiments often never, or rarely, come together in a useful intellectual model we can use to understand and predict, especially when it comes to human behaviour.

(2) I'd agree - if someone tells me I haven't experienced what I've experienced because it isn't theoretically or scientifically possible, I believe me because I was there, not them (see further point below)

The Case studies of Dr. R Sacks or R D Laing come to mind.


Is it me, or are the posts on hypography becoming more obtuse?

So, any thoughts about how this relates to literacy or lack thereof?

(3) My last point to CraigD was interrupted, so hastily finished off. Basically what I was trying to get around to was that you have to be 'present' to learn - those who run away (play truant with life)ignore what is going on' that they are afraid to discover in the classroom or in reality: Stage fright by any other name - standing up and being counted in society terms. Meditation is about getting the mind to calm down to see what is really happening as fear leads to running awayand the blurring of perception. People who are rushed or intimidated, make poor judgements because they lose their 'presence' of mind. I believe that intelligence is about being there (interested and concentrating upon the experience in hand). The less intelligent are what I call 'mentally dispersed' - that is their attention is elsewhere, therefore they not focused on the here and now, so not aware of it (drifing away instead of firmly anchored in reality). they are not interested, so their statements about reality and attempts to fit in are negligible. Patience stays and builds - impatience (fear) cuts and runs (destroys links). So to me truant kids, forming violent gangs as we have in Britain at the moment, are in denial and have turned their backs on society, becoming feral children as in William Golding's 'Lord of the Flies'. Those who stay in the classroom and learn, are willing to face the embarrassment to their ego of being wrong. Educated people fight with their mouths and minds - the uneducated fight with their fists and feelings (repress their own feelings of inferiority and suppress that knowledge coming out in others): Action and projection as in the psychiatric meaning versus introspection and thought (questioning own beliefs versus refusing to look). This means checking your actions and learning from your mistakes versus hit and run raids on life as a tactic. These kids are the equivalent of dispossessed native peoples across the world, when civilization takes over their land - they don't feel they belong and they don't try to join but rebel instead, getting them nowhere but dead or washed up quicker than those who do conform to reality (The truth of what is here and dominant as a lifestyle).

Clever people in this society are good with words, no matter how they use them. This is why I argue that society's demise and literacy are linked. Verbal arguments won't change the facts or peoples minds - only direct experience does because false belief is proven by the actions of reality upon the individual ('There's a rock above you head and it will kill you when it hits you!' 'Nonsense - I don-(thud!)).

Chicken little,me? More like Emperors New Clothes Syndrome, you but only time will tell.
PS
I just got this in the mail about kids and stress
FEATURE: HELPING KIDS COPE WITH STRESS
The kids are going back to school, which for some of them will be stressful. But rather than being a cause of anxiety, many primary schools are leading the way in teaching kids to deal with life's ups and downs. And the experts say that when schools and parents work together, even sensitive kids can learn to bounce back.
Helping children cope with stress - Health & Wellbeing


I will look at this at some time - sounds interesting!

#37 paigetheoracle

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 04:22 AM

Sadly I was interrupted again, so I'd like to clarify and add some points.

Firstly, the greater attention to detail, the more firmly in the present we are. Hence the old English adage 'Act in haste, repent at leisure'. If we don't check our work, not only will it show in our literacy skills but our work - think of The Twin Towers and the nuclear industry i.e. 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl (I lived near Dounreay in Scotland and that showed me that the British nuclear industry could have gone the same way, from trhe incidents reported of radiated particles washed up on local beaches and played down incidents: TV and radio documentaries on the subject).

Entrepeneurs (business men) don't need intellect - just ideas and push. It's the academic world however that does need literacy and mental skills, not bully boy tactics found on the playground or sportsground (overdeveloped minds in underdeveloped bodies and vice-versa (computers versus robots/ action men versus thoughtful ones/ freed minds versus bound bodies).

In Glasgow, 20 miles away from me and where we used to live, up to a hundred gangs of youths infest the place (our local one was the Darnley Mad Squad), with pitched battles every weekend. In my youth in Norfolk, it was three local gangs - Eye, Harleston and Diss, that used to do the same thing but knives were rare as it was mostly fists. As one youth in a documentary on the problem said 'If you grow up with it, it becomes normal' and this is my point about literacy bringing down society - if you're brought up with these generational changes occuring slowly over time, you may not realize where the change is leading (as with any cultural phenomena) until it's led you to the point of no return.

Burying your head in the sand means such problems grow, unopposed. Recognizing their existence means you can deal with them (Prostitution as a business/ drug production as an industry for instance - both of which are better for all concerned when out in the open and regulated (standardised/ controlled), where they can be seen, not pushed under the carpet and ignored (Left to run rampant as is happening with schools at present, in the UK at least): See Berlins answer to prostitution, Hollands answer to drugs, Sweden and pornography, where prohibition led to and the American police movement trying to legalize drugs because these people in the front line, believe suppression is counterproductive (creates crime not alleviates it). In the field of literacy it means taking a lighter view of the whole situation because like all these other social problems they have been with us as long as civilization has existed (see how the Romans handled prostitution for instance).

As I say, I don't know whether I believe any prediction about anything (Mother Shipton's description of motor vehicles sounded remarkable to me, until I discovered this had been written by a follower of hers in the modern era, to make her look better than she was). I do believe in the power of dreams to reveal something you're not conscious of and many famous people in the field of science, including Einstein, dreamed the answer to problems they were having with their theories and inventions etc. I for instance once dreamed of being in an arcade where there was an entertainment medium that consisted of what I was told was composed of 'Feelies' (projected sound waves) and 'Sensies' (holograms projeced into thin air), to create a seemingly 3-D ghost that could be felt to a degree and was a free standing image (I dreamed this years ago but read recently (last week) that medical scientists hope to be able to create a new form of ultra-sound that can be projected outside the body, to show the fetus in 3-D (I believe the hologrammatic element of my dream could come from some kind of visual hallucination as shown in Gregory's 'Eye and Mind' or recent thread in The Watercooler). All of this is of course getting away from the subject in hand. Just call me Ishmael (born survivor, so far), Diogenes because I seek the truth and Cassandra because nobody believes what I say or listens to me or wants to know what I say.

Last point - Michaelangelica: New technology may replace forums but it will be with egotistical pap, if what we've seen so far is to be believed (Facebook, My Space etc) - visual projection of self, coupled with hollow, vain speech ('Hello, this is me - is that you?'). This society won't end with a bang, just a pointless whimper.

By the way, I would just like to publicly thank Hypography Forums for giving me the chance to hone my debating skills. Other sites I've visited responded to arguments with flames, rather than reasoned counter-evidence or logic: That has not been duplicated here, thankfully

#38 paigetheoracle

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 03:52 AM

CraigD I have to acknowledge you're statistical evidence does point to America is certainly doing better than Britain, educationally, because it believes in competitiveness and we in socialist UK are 'trying' to be fair, which discourages effort. So from this evidence I must concede, it's the end of the British Empire, not necessarily America or the rest of the world. In the end it is down to local knowledge (Where you are and what you can see, rather than rumours from abroad: The News).

Another point to ponder as well as pecking order and disenfranchisement, is the relationship between mind and body in this argument or the development of the physical or mental. Looking at the autistics savant abilities (or indeed geeks as a thinking community), what we have is overdeveloped minds but undeveloped bodies - brilliant calculating, musical talent, artistic ability but a loss of the ability to handle the physical world too well (Kim Peek and even me, I've noticed - clumsy, accident prone, inability to make sense of social interactions or handle them well or at all).

On the other hand we have the Jocks - into sport and physical activity but not so great at handling the academic world (overdeveloped bodies/ atrophied mental skills). In the UK's working class, this is seen in simple, repetitive speech patterns because physically busy parents are too busy or too tired to listen to their kids and physical action doesn't require the same depth of knowledge and usage of words as more intellectual (detailed)activities. The middle class being more office workers, need to develop their minds to pick up on details and be more mentally (ideas) orientated, so are attention specific: I see it as The Egg Timer effect - computers or robots (action and projection versus inaction (thought)and introspection i.e. pouring out attention into the world or pouring it in, into the mind: The Artist Effect of stepping forward to act or back to consider what you've done and are going to do next - conscience and consciousness). As forces it's attraction to one pole and repulsion from the other - inner to outer or outer to inner.

With regards to this thread it means that action out in this world keeps things simple and business like, through competition but intricacy of ideas requires introversion or studying things in detail, close up or am I wrong? (reasoning sounds logical but isn't).

#39 Michaelangelica

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 08:11 AM

[quote][quote name='paigetheoracle'] America is certainly doing better than Britain, educationally, because it believes in competitiveness and we in socialist UK are 'trying' to be fair, which discourages effort.[/quote]
I hear this often sproted on this forum.
Can anyone prove it?

Does socialism lead to literacy?
Does competition lead to literacy?

Is post Thatcher Britain socialist?

[quote] it's the end of the British Empire,[/quote]
Not with two trillion $ in British banks in offshore accounts . One third of the world's private wealth.

[quote]Another point to ponder as well as pecking order and disenfranchisement, is the relationship between mind and body in this argument or the development of the physical or mental. Looking at the autistics savant abilities (or indeed geeks as a thinking community), what we have is overdeveloped minds but undeveloped bodies - brilliant calculating, musical talent, artistic ability but a loss of the ability to handle the physical world too well (Kim Peek and even me, I've noticed - clumsy, accident prone, inability to make sense of social interactions or handle them well or at all).[/quote]
My female Cousin I continually quote.
she says "All males have Asperger's to some extent."
It is interesting the large number of autistic and asperger's kids now being born in Silicon Valley

[quote]On the other hand we have the Jocks - into sport and physical activity but not so great at handling the academic world (overdeveloped bodies/ atrophied mental skills).[/quote]
An assumption that does not necessarily follow.
Brawn and brain can go together.
Schwarzenegger seems to be doing OK managing the world's sixth biggest economy.
[quote] In the UK's working class, this is seen in simple, repetitive speech patterns because physically busy parents are too busy or too tired to listen to their kids and physical action doesn't require the same depth of knowledge and usage of words as more intellectual (detailed)activities. The middle class being more office workers, need to develop their minds to pick up on details and be more mentally (ideas) orientated, so are attention specific: I see it as The Egg Timer effect - computers or robots (action and projection versus inaction (thought)and introspection i.e. pouring out attention into the world or pouring it in, into the mind: The Artist Effect of stepping forward to act or back to consider what you've done and are going to do next - conscience and consciousness). As forces it's attraction to one pole and repulsion from the other - inner to outer or outer to inner.With regards to this thread it means that action out in this world keeps things simple and business like, through competition but intricacy of ideas requires introversion or studying things in detail, close up or am I wrong? (reasoning sounds logical but isn't)
[/quote]
I don't really follow your argument here.
Are you saying that literacy or speech is class related?
What happens in a relativly classless society like Australia?
I can see that the paragraph is peppered with more assumptions.
I can't see that IQ and reading ability are equated.
They may be, but this does not have to be the case.
A proper IQ test (Wechsler administered by a clinical psychologist) or for pre literate Young uns 'draw a man') can give you an IQ figure rather than a pen and paper test. So almost no literacy needed to get an IQ figure.
Then of course you have to equate IQ and intelligence (another story/argument)

I did read somewhere that most PhDs were gained by people with slightly above average intelligence, not the super-high IQ or super-bright.
This seems to indicate qualities like discipline, attention span, determination, work ethic, ability to delay immediate gratification, etc., are all qualities necessary to get to the top of the educational ladder
(Incidentally, all qualities kids would learn if they learnt a musical instrument and joined an orchestra.)
You might suggest it to those with some influence over your youth gangs?

PS
This is an interesting local site with something to say about junior literacy
Literacy Web Australia
EG
[quote]What is Literacy?

The Queensland School Curriculum Council (1997) has defined literacy in simple terms as being "the ability to communicate by reading, speaking, listening and viewing".
Emerging technologies are providing new challenges in the area of literacy, "with new technologies come also new genres and new opportunities to learn about the world" (Lankshear & Knobel, 1997).

Evolving definitions of literacy often include all the symbol systems relevant to a particular community. " Literacy encompasses a complex set of abilities to understand and use the dominant symbol systems of a culture for personal and community development.
In a technological society, the concept of literacy is expanding to include the media and electronic text, in addition to alphabetic and number systems.

These abilities vary in different social and cultural contexts according to need and demand. Individuals must be given lifelong opportunities to move along a continuum that includes the reading, and writing, critical understanding and decision-making abilities they need in their community (The Centre For Literacy Of Quebec, 1997).

The Australian Children's Literacy National Project Newsletter (1997) states that, "literacy refers specially to written language usage (including digitally encoded texts). Some important points follow from this conception. First, As written language, literacy is already technologised.
It only comes into being within and through available technologies of information and communication ... regardless of the particular technologies involved in specific cases, technology is necessarily inherent in literacy. There simply cannot be literacy without technology. (Lankshear, Bigum et al)[/quote]
"technologised"? groan:doh:
PSS
It is infesting that my extremely literate, competent. book-editing wife; could not find the toilet at the international Airport the other day because there was only a symbol for it, not a word.

Her text messages are punctuated correctly and grammatically correct. (When she uses them because they take her so long to write!).
BTW does anyone know if ther is a mobile phone text stroke for a colon? ":"

#40 paigetheoracle

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 03:11 AM

[quote name='Michaelangelica'][quote]
I hear this often sproted on this forum.
Can anyone prove it?

(1) What would you consider proof? How do you define literacy? For me intelligence is interest (presence) in life, leading to the effort to discover more. Literacy as opposed to being literate, which means learned/ intelligent, comprises of passive input (reading) and active output (writing). The latter is further subdivided into spelling (What letters go in a word and where) and grammar (word order and word endings principally to change meaning, not excluding prefix's though): From the quote at the bottom of this post, verbal skills are included but to me literacy is the written word and its use and understanding - as for your wife not being able to find a toilet because it had a symbol on it rather than a written sign, this is about emotional intelligence and art (visual skill/ the whole) being different from deciphering a line of symbols or details within a landscape/ picture (mental skill).

Does socialism lead to literacy?
Does competition lead to literacy?

(2) Literacy as with an other subject is something you do well in if motivated - socialism takes away the need to try: Imagine a race - if you don't compete against others on the track or your own previous best effort, then you aren't going to bother running are you? (intellect is no different from bodily skills in this respect - emotion steers you forth on your big adventure as boredom makes you give up all effort as does negativity (apathy - I'm not going to get anywhere, so why try?)

Is post Thatcher Britain socialist?

(3) Yes, by government: No, by business as you say below

Not with two trillion $ in British banks in offshore accounts . One third of the world's private wealth.


My female Cousin I continually quote.
she says "All males have Asperger's to some extent."
It is interesting the large number of autistic and asperger's kids now being born in Silicon Valley

(4) Pointed out before but still true - my old doctor in Caithness said he didn't believe in Aspergers and thought it was just maleness of some sort, manifesting itself

An assumption that does not necessarily follow.
Brawn and brain can go together.
Schwarzenegger seems to be doing OK managing the world's sixth biggest economy.

(5) As I said earlier business can balance the books but that doesn't mean you have a real depth of understanding of it, just the emotional balance to balance the books (Mr Micawber and happiness/misery quote)

I don't really follow your argument here.
Are you saying that literacy or speech is class related?
What happens in a relativly classless society like Australia?
I can see that the paragraph is peppered with more assumptions.
I can't see that IQ and reading ability are equated.
They may be, but this does not have to be the case.
A proper IQ test (Wechsler administered by a clinical psychologist) or for pre literate Young uns 'draw a man') can give you an IQ figure rather than a pen and paper test. So almost no literacy needed to get an IQ figure.
Then of course you have to equate IQ and intelligence (another story/argument)

(6) See further emotional intelligence stuff below (making sense of the senses)

I did read somewhere that most PhDs were gained by people with slightly above average intelligence, not the super-high IQ or super-bright.
This seems to indicate qualities like discipline, attention span, determination, work ethic, ability to delay immediate gratification, etc., are all qualities necessary to get to the top of the educational ladder
(Incidentally, all qualities kids would learn if they learnt a musical instrument and joined an orchestra.)
You might suggest it to those with some influence over your youth gangs?

(7) The educational system with regards to the UK, used to encourage debate and thought at University level - nowadays it seems to have abandoned independent thought (intelligence as I define it) for the American model of rote learning: Rote learning is fine when you're trying to instill facts in pupils heads, to use at a later date but intelligence (art) is what you do with it after e.g. Poetry or jokes after learning to spell (read/ write).

PS
This is an interesting local site with something to say about junior literacy
Literacy Web Australia
EG

"technologised"? groan:doh:
PSS
It is infesting that my extremely literate, competent. book-editing wife; could not find the toilet at the international Airport the other day because there was only a symbol for it, not a word.

Her text messages are punctuated correctly and grammatically correct. (When she uses them because they take her so long to write!).
BTW does anyone know if ther is a mobile phone text stroke for a colon? ":"[/quote]

(8) What I meant about lower class and middle class skills, is visual skills (hand/ eye co-ordination) for physical acts (action heroes), versus reasoning skills (decipherment: Artist Effect and standing back to observe, understand and suggest new angle as opposed to stepping forward to act). Male versus female, practical versus theoretical, social co-operation versus individual creativity - sound expands our awareness into a general perception of the world, which is good for action as energy (attention) moves outwards. Whereas thought (vision) concentrates our attention down to finer and finer detail, introverting us and making us ponder our experiences, rather than just carry on with our effort.

(9) If I had my way, education would be streamed into Doers (practical skills,like gardening, cooking, sports etc), Thinkers (academics - non-fiction writers, scientists, politicians) and Feelers (artists, healers, the spiritual). This doesn't mean pupils wouldn't be able to move between these fields as they needed to (as you say it isn't always that clear cut and shouldn't be - I further believe we need segregation(where you can feel safe amongst those with something in common with you) and places to mix(where you can venture out and experiment, if you feel bored with your current life - after all how would reproduction occur, if we didn't mix with the opposite sex? No intercourse, no future race) but it should be voluntary). I don't believe in blanket education: Everybody needing to know the same thing at the same level - 'From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs'. We don't need clones but this is what dictorship and fear is about (If everybody is me, how can I be in danger? (from the unknown/ other)).

To clarify further - positive emotion leads to effort (tiny hope in Pandora's box - grabbing hold)as negative emotion leads to none (giant despair - letting go into expansive unconsciousness: This is why depression is considered a mental illness as it leads to cutting off attention and effort to the outside world and why Marx considered religion the opiate of the masses). Hence consciousness and detailed knowledge going together and semi-consciousness leading to more generalised awareness. Males are crude as women are refined versions of us for this reason - they bring hope for future generations (child breeding and care) as we bring despair (violent conflict - individual violence/ social upheaval, through war and rebellion).

(10) Any more questions - address them to the hand.:phones:

#41 Michaelangelica

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 07:38 PM

socialism takes away the need to try

This is the oft-sprouted proposition I would like to see some proof of; it is more like a meme or possibly a factoid.

#42 paigetheoracle

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 04:20 AM

This is the oft-sprouted proposition I would like to see some proof of; it is more like a meme or possibly a factoid.


What would you consider proof? By comparing countries or history, you should see differences. For instance I remember seeing a photo that showed development on both sides of the Berlin Wall - in the East, the buildings looked old and delapidated and in the West there was vibrant development going on all over the place. Compare literacy rates in Britain, Russia and America as CraigD says. I don't consider America's standards as high as the UK's but that is because we are an older, more complicated society (youth is simple, age is complex through development). Compare China now as it moves away from communism into capitalism, even if it denies that is happening. Competition stimulates interest and action but maybe that is just my interpretation of the facts as I see them. One thing I have learnt through life is that if you don't believe in something, no-one can make you, anymore than they can make you do something you don't want to (Try carrying a corpse/ You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink).

By the way a simple definition of being literate is that you can understand what you read and others can understand what you've written, by hand or on a computer screen. It's all a matter of degree and complexity of ideas - a lot of people are fine with single syllable words but have difficulty spelling, pronouncing and remembering multi-syllable words and get lost in technobabble or specialist fields (off-side in football baffles me for instance). Dyslexics are at the bottom of the ladder in this respect - they can talk but understand written symbols or duplicate them, that is another matter. In emotional intelligence terms they may be good at the real world and practical things but abstract material in the visual field baffles them.

I agree with what you say about anecdotal evidence. As I said to CraigD in one of my long winded defences 'I believe the evidence of my own eyes before I believe the comments of someone who wasn't there (a so-called expert) because although their ideas may sound plausible, they didn't experience what I did and so are more likely to be wrong in their assumptions than I am as they don't have first hand evidence of it'.

#43 Michaelangelica

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 04:39 AM

[quote name='paigetheoracle']What would you consider proof? By comparing countries or history, you should see differences. For instance I remember seeing a photo that showed development on both sides of the Berlin Wall - in the East, the buildings looked old and delapidated and in the West there was vibrant development going on all over the place. Compare literacy rates in Britain, Russia and America as CraigD says. I don't consider America's standards as high as the UK's but that is because we are an older, more complicated society (youth is simple, age is complex through development). Compare China now as it moves away from communism into capitalism, even if it denies that is happening. Competition stimulates interest and action but maybe that is just my interpretation of the facts as I see them. One thing I have learnt through life is that if you don't believe in something, no-one can make you, anymore than they can make you do something you don't want to (Try carrying a corpse/ You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink).[/quote]
I don't agree with any of that, but its probably off topic so I will let it go or see if there is a more appropriate thread to argue the issue.

[quote]By the way a simple definition of being literate is that you can understand what you read and others can understand what you've written, by hand or on a computer screen. It's all a matter of degree and complexity of ideas - a lot of people are fine with single syllable words but have difficulty spelling, pronouncing and remembering multi-syllable words and get lost in technobabble or specialist fields (off-side in football baffles me for instance). Dyslexics are at the bottom of the ladder in this respect - they can talk but understand written symbols or duplicate them, that is another matter. In emotional intelligence terms they may be good at the real world and practical things but abstract material in the visual field baffles them.
[/quote][/QUOTE]
Yes
[quote]I agree with what you say about anecdotal evidence. As I said to CraigD in one of my long winded defences 'I believe the evidence of my own eyes before I believe the comments of someone who wasn't there (a so-called expert) because although their ideas may sound plausible, they didn't experience what I did and so are more likely to be wrong in their assumptions than I am as they don't have first hand evidence of it'[/quote].
What?
Are you saying you would believe your own eyes before the results of a scientific experiment?

#44 paigetheoracle

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 04:54 AM

[quote name='Michaelangelica']I don't agree with any of that, but its probably off topic so I will let it go or see if there is a more appropriate thread to argue the issue.

(1) Socialism may work in Australia and South America - it's not what you believe but what you do with it that counts (Cuba / Allende in Chile/Chavez). If you do start a thread on this I may join as I believe it is the singer not the song that is important

[/quote]
Yes
.
What?
Are you saying you would believe your own eyes before the results of a scientific experiment?[/QUOTE]

(2) Yes as I only have somebody elses word that they didn't fake the result for their own purposes (own beliefs in the rightness of their proposition/ business funding rather than pure science etc). I read an article in the Daily Mail a few years back, so I can't reference it but I'm sure if you want you can trace it on the internet or even here, that said a survey found that a percentage of scientists had faked their test results to fall in line with their theories. Under these circumstances, yes I'd rather believe me and my senses rather than the motives of somebody else I'd never met and therefore couldn't verify their attitude to their own work or experiences - this is the difference between science and philosophy I think you'll find (I think, therefore I am). Magic tricks can baffle the unwary but after you've investigated them with you're own mind, they cease to amaze and amuse and just become phenomena.

Children lie by the age 4 (scientific experiment by psychologists on 'The People Watchers' BBC2, February this year). Nature lies - creatures that camouflage their identity to blend in with the background (I'm not here) - hover fly that imitates the markings of a wasp or caterpillars/ moths with Eye markings that may throw a predator by making them think they're snakes/ owls. Reality itself may lie - I even catch 'me' doing it daily. It's a survival technique.

This isn't about science but evidence and belief (psychology/ philosophy - the mind, not physical proof). There used to be a TV, science show in the UK called 'Take Nobody's Word for it'. The title was on about blind faith, rather than experiental evidence. 'The People Watchers' I mentioned earlier is on about conning people into believing something that isn't true and hiding the truth about what is real, to mislead others. So, hopefully you'll see it's not about the truth but about that horribly insecure and easily mistaken entity - the witness. This also ties in with literacy in that you can be misled by what you read and react to it as if it was the truth but not being present, you don't know and cannot know for sure what the actual truth of the matter is. On top of this verbal persuasion is even worse as you can be pressured into action by peer reaction and carried along by the tide of feeling that leads to war or other forms of violence (Umberto Echo describes this wonderfully as the individual and reason being lost to a composite, drunken (on power), social animal). My enemy isn't science but hot-headed reaction (unreason) - mine or other peoples(the only thing we ever truly fight is our own ignorance). My friend is cool, calm, collected logic but this doesn't lead to breeding and continuance of the race, sadly.

#45 Michaelangelica

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 05:09 AM

[quote][quote name='paigetheoracle']Yes
.
What?
Are you saying you would believe your own eyes before the results of a scientific experiment?[/quote]

Yes as I only have somebody elses word that they didn't fake the result for their own purposes (own beliefs in the rightness of their proposition/ business funding rather than pure science etc). I read an article in the Daily Mail a few years back, so I can't reference it but I'm sure if you want you can trace it on the internet or even here, that said a survey found that a percentage of scientists had faked their test results to fall in line with their theories. Under these circumstances, yes I'd rather believe me and my senses rather than the motives of somebody else I'd never met and therefore couldn't verify their attitude to their own work or experiences - this is the difference between science and philosophy I think you'll find (I think, therefore I am). Magic tricks can baffle the unwary but after you've investigated them with you're own mind, they cease to amaze and amuse and just become phenomena.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Well I think you are illiterate when it comes to scientific method, methodology and the whole process of collecting and verifying new scientific knowledge and imput. It is a very slow, long and laborious process and the odd charlatan rarely makes it past a brief front page headline.

Do you believe that the sun revolves around the Earth?
If not, why not?

#46 Michaelangelica

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 05:14 AM

Posted socialism question here
http://hypography.co...html#post206661

#47 paigetheoracle

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 05:44 AM

Well I think you are illiterate when it comes to scientific method, methodology and the whole process of collecting and verifying new scientific knowledge and imput. It is a very slow, long and laborious process and the odd charlatan rarely makes it past a brief front page headline.

Do you believe that the sun revolves around the Earth?
If not, why not?[/QUOTE]

The word is ignorant not illiterate. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - does it work, that is the practical question and the resulting evidence.

Do I believe the sun revolves around the Earth, no but I have no experience of the truth of the matter and as I shall never fly to another planet aboard a spacecraft, it doesn't really affect me does it? People get too carried away with beliefs and having to prove they are right and others wrong. This does not stop daily life but does add to unnecessary conflict within it.

Your reaction seems like science worship to me

#48 Michaelangelica

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 09:52 PM

This is hard to believe
Looking up their definition now
http://www.data360.o...Id=356#comments

#49 Michaelangelica

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 01:20 AM

"If you can read and write the future is in your own hands"
Kim Beasley ?

#50 Michaelangelica

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 11:53 AM

"Teacher Who Couldn't Read" Becomes Literacy Activist
2/16/2008
Now, the formerly illiterate man is a published author: His book, The Teacher Who Couldn't Read, shares the heart-wrenching tale of his struggles in the world of education, illuminating an important issue that often remains hidden in our society. In 1997, he founded the John Corcoran Foundation, a nonprofit organization that provides free tutoring and literacy services to children and adults. Since he finally spoke out about his own struggles, he has become a staunch advocate for the importance of literacy.

"I believe that illiteracy in America is a form of child neglect and child abuse and the child is blamed and they carry the shame," he says on his website. "If we just teach our people how to read, we'd give them a fair chance."

"Teacher Who Couldn't Read" Becomes Literacy Activist,good,news,good news,positive,positive-news,good news media, inspiring stories,green news,health news,family news,heroes,pets,celebrities,Inspirational Story, Good News, Inspirational Message, Dail
Says a lot about our education system

#51 paigetheoracle

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 08:35 AM

I predict that travel will shrink to nil. Before this happens oil tankers will become converted to food tankers (Pirates will attack them for black market resources and they'll become armed or have armed escort, to protect them). In a newspaper report of a few years back, it said that wars would based on food in the future and with the recent headline about world wheat stocks being only good for forty more days, that is starting to look not only possible but imminent: A few years of bad harvests because of climate change is all we need. Humanity is living, not only beyond its own means but the means of the planet to support them. Soylant Green could become a reality in our lifetime (see the film of the same name with Charleton Heston) and may be the only thing that staves off such a scenario or at least postpones it and the other horsemen of the Apocalypse (Not just famine but drought and the war for resources, plus the disease that will follow mass death and the loss of hygiene). Still, that's life, not common sense and living sensibly within our means.