Behind the War on terror - Saudi Babylon

[LaurieAG]

I have been reading the book 'Saudi Babylon' by Mark Hollingworth with Sandy Mitchell and I find it very disturbing and difficult reading, particularly the amount of detail.

 

'I would have confessed to anything' | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

 

It makes me ask "Just what are the 'lowest' common denominators of those involved in the War on Terror"?

 

There are 3 major key links that bind all of the political leaders involved:-

 

(1) Corruption, especially with regards to military expenditure and 'rebuilding'.

(2) Torture, or a lack of reluctance to send people to countries that torture.

(3) Constitutional and democratic abuses.

 

This all leads me to ask 'Is the War on Terror a front for Crony Capitalism masquerading as 'globalism''?

[Queso]

it appears so

[Buffy]

I think they're related up to the last point which is so much more complicated.

 

The right wing in the US is bifurcated between the rich who do like limits on trade barriers (at least where its advantageous to them!) and the vast majority of conservatives who are basically isolationists (see Patrick Buchannan, Ross Perot, etc.) who at the more extreme are out there looking for black helicopters and expecting to vanquish "One-World Government."

 

Why this latter group keeps thinking that GWBush is the messiah, I don't think I'll ever figure out: his daddy's on the Trilateral Commission, and even GW wants to open the borders to keep labor suppressed, and of course anything to do with giving his oil buddies a free ride is just peachy!

 

Now as I said, support for globalism is limited even among the rich, witness the Farm Bill, which is billed as supporting "family farmers" when 90% of farming in the US is done by gigantic conglomerates who really don't need the subsidies, but if it fattens their bottom line and they can scream down any opponents as "hating god-fearing, hard-working, flag-waving farmers" they'll do it. And don't you dare talk about putting limits on those subsidies to Big-Agra, because that would be "unfair" and "un-American."

 

The problem with this is that other countries see this, see hypocracy and retaliate, which works *against* globalism.

 

Personally I see a big swing back to good ol' Populism, and while Mr. Gore still walks around like he's got a long pointy object in his posterior, he's still a latter day Upton Sinclair. And take a look at Lou Dobbs, CNN muckraker who's being pinned as an anti-immigrant conservative (his wife is Mexican!), when he's actually a raving-looney populist/internationalist.

 

Just a small warning: Doomsayers are usually wrong. Assuming there are no countervailing forces is dangerous, and is kind of offensive when you think about it. Do you really want to assume that everyone is stupider than you and go out and yell it at the top of your lungs? :shrug:

 

It'll soon shake your windows and rattle your walls, :phones:

Buffy

[LaurieAG]

Hi Buffy,

 

Now as I said, support for globalism is limited even among the rich, witness the Farm Bill, which is billed as supporting "family farmers" when 90% of farming in the US is done by gigantic conglomerates who really don't need the subsidies, but if it fattens their bottom line and they can scream down any opponents as "hating god-fearing, hard-working, flag-waving farmers" they'll do it. And don't you dare talk about putting limits on those subsidies to Big-Agra, because that would be "unfair" and "un-American."

 

But the majority of politicians support the minority view, and thats what really counts.

 

The problem with this is that other countries see this, see hypocracy and retaliate, which works *against* globalism.

 

Right on.

 

Personally I see a big swing back to good ol' Populism, and while Mr. Gore still walks around like he's got a long pointy object in his posterior, he's still a latter day Upton Sinclair. And take a look at Lou Dobbs, CNN muckraker who's being pinned as an anti-immigrant conservative (his wife is Mexican!), when he's actually a raving-looney populist/internationalist.

 

And protectionism, the pendulum swings?

 

Just a small warning: Doomsayers are usually wrong. Assuming there are no countervailing forces is dangerous, and is kind of offensive when you think about it. Do you really want to assume that everyone is stupider than you and go out and yell it at the top of your lungs? :shrug:

 

If the alternative 'view' of the countervailing force is to invade Iran then it isn't really an alternative or even countervailing for that matter.

 

Have your politicians used 'CORE and NON CORE' political promises yet?

[LaurieAG]

Hi Buffy,

 

Just a small warning: Doomsayers are usually wrong. Assuming there are no countervailing forces is dangerous, and is kind of offensive when you think about it. Do you really want to assume that everyone is stupider than you and go out and yell it at the top of your lungs? :shrug:

 

Here's the latest from Saudi Arabia from the Jerusalem Post Saudi court sentences rape victim to 90 lashes | Jerusalem Post.

 

"Gang Rape victim to be lashed"

 

A Saudi court has sentenced a gang rape victim to 90 lashes of the whip because she was alone in a car with a man to whom she was not married.

 

The sentence was passed at the end of a trial in which the al- Qateef high criminal court convicted four Saudis convicted of the rape, sentencing them to prison terms and a total of 2,230 lashes.

 

The four, all married, were sentenced respectively to five years and 1,000 lashes, four years and 800 lashes, four years and 350 lashes, and one year and 80 lashes.

 

A fifth, married, man who was stated to have filmed the rape on his mobile phone still faces investigation. Two others alleged to have taken part in the rape evaded capture.

 

Saudi courts take marital status into account in sexual crimes. A male friend of the rape victim was also sentenced to 90 lashes for being alone with her in the car.

 

The court heard that the victim and her friend were followed by the assailants to their car, kidnapped and taken to a remote farm, where the raping occurred.

 

The victim was quoted by Okaz newspaper as saying she had expected harsher penalties for the assailants, especially as they had pleaded not guilty.

 

Her husband and family said that they would appeal to the court Saturday for harsher penalties for a crime which has shocked public opinion in Saudi Arabia and been the subject of months of debate.

 

It'll soon shake your windows and rattle your walls

 

You said it.

[Racoon]

Wahhabism

 

Wahhabism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Freddy]

Sharia Law is religious law from Islam. It can be harsh! From Wikipedia:

 

"Saudi Arabia and Iran maintain religious courts for all aspects of jurisprudence, and religious police assert social compliance. Laws derived from sharia are also applied in Afghanistan, Libya and Sudan."

 

"...stoning to death is the penalty for married men and women who commit adultery..."

[InfiniteNow]

The war on terror is like the war on drugs. It is not truly a war, and it is not truly effective. The people are tired of war. The soldiers are tired of dying. Yet we keep rattling hornets nest after hornets nest.

 

Our civilization is evolving more quickly than our biology. I sometimes wonder what it will take to realign the two, but then quickly turn from those thoughts due to their extreme apocolyptic nature.

 

 

And stop blaming people, countries, religions, and civilizations. It only excaserbates the issues we are facing. Put your focus on solutions and what you can do to maximize peace, survival, and the survival of peace itself.

 

 

 

 

Buffy - A quick nod to you in recognition of your point regarding Gore and the Jungle. Thanks for the informed perspective you continue to share and articulate.

 

 

 

The fight for resources is in full swing, and those that cooperate will ultimately win.

[Racoon]

1)The war on terror is like the war on drugs. It is not truly a war, and it is not truly effective.

 

2) And stop blaming people, countries, religions, and civilizations. It only excaserbates the issues we are facing. Put your focus on solutions and what you can do to maximize peace, survival, and the survival of peace itself.

 

 

 

1) Thats agreed upon.. The war on drugs is a total failure.. so is the war on poverty.

 

2) Then who do You place the blame upon!?

Its the peoples w/ religions, in their countries that cause these problems... In case you haven't noticed..

 

If you can't blame the problem, on somebody or something, then how can you make a change to fix it???

[InfiniteNow]

I said:

 

And stop blaming people, countries, religions, and civilizations. It only excaserbates the issues we are facing. Put your focus on solutions and what you can do to maximize peace, survival, and the survival of peace itself.

 

 

Then you responded:

2) Then who do You place the blame upon!?

 

Does this answer your post, or shall I write it a third time?

[Racoon]

I said:

 

 

 

 

Then you responded:

 

 

Does this answer your post, or shall I write it a third time?

 

So you're saying don't blame anybody?

Nobody caused the world conflict we're in..?

 

Yeah, cuz' that works... and then it works the opposite when you Sue anybody for anything wrong that happens..

 

I'd like to see your data IN... :confused:

[InfiniteNow]

So you're saying don't blame anybody?

Well, sort of, but not that extreme. The bigger point I was making is that it's generally a waste of our time and energy to focus so much on assigning blame. We spend too many resources on our rage and too few on our problem solving.

 

The assignment of blame does not solve problems. I see it as a peripheral step to finding solutions to problems.

 

If a little kid comes home from school with an F on his math test, you could either waste a bunch of time blaming the math book or the teacher, or, you could spend your time helping the kid learn the math so they don't fail the next test. The first option is a waste of time while the second option uses that time to move forward.

 

Is this more clear, or shall I try to explain a fourth time?

 

 

 

To make it more personal, I blame AM radio and your addiction to the 24 hour news cycle for your anger and outlook, but that won't move you past it. The blame is meaningless. I am trying to focus on the solution by illustrating to you how you could use your energies more wisely, such as better defining the issues we face as a planet and then working to find and implement changes to improve them. Right now, yelling about this big broad bucket into which you throw all arabs (or insert any other "flavor of the day" issue like illegal immigration) is not exactly helping.

[Racoon]

Well, sort of, but not that extreme. The bigger point I was making is that it's generally a waste of our time and energy to focus so much on assigning blame. We spend too many resources on our rage and too few on our problem solving.

 

The assignment of blame does not solve problems. I see it as a peripheral step to finding solutions to problems.

 

If a little kid comes home from school with an F on his math test, you could either waste a bunch of time blaming the math book or the teacher, or, you could spend your time helping the kid learn the math so they don't fail the next test. The first option is a waste of time while the second option uses that time to move forward.

 

Is this more clear, or shall I try to explain a fourth time?

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, explain it a 4th time for me , please....

 

If the math kid came home w/ an F, maybe the kid can't learn math good. :sun:

[Boerseun]

Right on, Infinite.

 

The "War on Terror" is a war on ideology. An ideology, I might add, which came to being because the terrorists have no conceivable means of confronting the West head-on, man-to-man, bullet-for-bullet on a battlefield, because the West have been spending insane amounts of bucks on building up their arsenals since the Second World War - mostly in order to let the Russians do the same, and that, of course, helped bring down the Soviet Union. Problem is, the West is still stuck with the hardware, and will bring it all to the fight when and wherever the fight breaks out.

 

So anybody disagreeing with the West will be blown to bits, and its only military option would be terrorism. The "War of the flea".

 

Now, putting blame on anybody will not yield any productive results. I agree with your point completely.

[Qfwfq]

I too agree it's no use putting the blame on anybody, because the blame is on HISTORY and there's no use fighting a war against history or putting it into jail, is there? There has alway been fighting for control of the middle east, but Vasco de Gamma started an epochal change that eventually busted a hornet's nest open. In the link on Wahabbism Racoon supplied, one may learn that it had a strong role in anti-colonialism, something that is still driving a lot of sentiment in eastern places especially as they are still the hotspots of current planetary strategy.

 

Now all this certainly hasn't synchronized history and progress between east and west. It is therefore quite understandable that there are still plenty of differences in culture and mentality around the world (and in reasonable limits this ain't a bad thing either), and you can't expect a few decades of fast and available communications systems to have already harmonized things.

 

From the link in the OP by Laurie:

Mitchell's ordeal began at 7am on December 17 2000 when he arrived in his 4x4 at the Security Forces hospital in Riyadh, where he was chief anaesthetic technician.

Notice the word:

 

ordeal

 

which is exactly what that article is almost talking about: an ordeal. Look it up in a dictionary:

 

1. An ancient form of test to determine guilt or innocence, by appealing to a supernatural decision, -- once common in Europe, and still practiced in the East and by savage tribes.

 

Note: In England ordeal by fire and ordeal by water were used, the former confined to persons of rank, the latter to the common people. The ordeal by fire was performed, either by handling red-hot iron, or by walking barefoot and blindfold over red-hot plowshares, laid at unequal distances. If the person escaped unhurt, he was adjudged innocent; otherwise he was condemned as guilty. The ordeal by water was performed, either by plunging the bare arm to the elbow in boiling water, an escape from injury being taken as proof of innocence, or by casting the accused person, bound hand and foot, into a river or pond, when if he floated it was an evidence of guilt, but if he sunk he was acquitted. It is probable that the proverbial phrase, to go through fire and water, denoting severe trial or danger, is derived from the ordeal. See {Wager of battle}, under {Wager}.

 

2. Any severe trial, or test; a painful experience.

It took quite a while for the Roman tradition of arguing cases by reason to spread around the west, colonialists didn't do such a great job of spreading it in the ME.

 

Regarding the link about the rape victim, it's quite true that Islamic fundamentalists go harsh in punishing promiscuous situations. Among the many Persians I knew at uni, there were two sisters of a numerous family; another sister of theirs was once caught by the Pasdaran, at a private party with her fiancèe and other unmarried couples. They were all sentenced to severe whipping, though the women were given the option of a heavy fine instead. Most of these friends of mine are firmly against the regime, but I doubt they want their country to be bombed.

[LaurieAG]

Hi Boerseun,

 

Now, putting blame on anybody will not yield any productive results. I agree with your point completely.

 

I agree too.

 

But if we don't understand why these things happen and don't even try to do anything to prevent these things from hapenning in the future, we really should be blamed for our own gross congenital stupidity.

 

After reading the book (thread title) I can see how Saudi Arabia reveals a pattern of behaviour that is consistent with the results that we see as 'terrorism' and which also has a lot in common with the 'social terrorism' that have begun appearing recently as school massacres in the US.

 

The basic fact is, in the present interpretation of the Koran, their 'god' had no intention whatsoever to label all men and mankind as vicious uncontrolled wild beasts (the rationale for the punishment of the female in the rape case), but the Saudi elites do.

 

In the same vein, it doesn't matter how much you trust in your own 'god', if you alienate, isolate, marginalise and disenfranchise your children in your education systems, you just get vicious sociopathic beasts and the same result.

 

One thing is for certain, continuing on the same road will hurt just as much internally as it will externally for all parties involved, if wild beasts are to continue the dialogue and not sentient humans.

 

Isn't it time we all took responsibility for our actions and stopped blaming animals?

[Michaelangelica]

The war on terror is like the war on drugs. It is not truly a war, and it is not truly effective. The people are tired of war. The soldiers are tired of dying. Yet we keep rattling hornets nest after hornets nest.

 

Our civilization is evolving more quickly than our biology. I sometimes wonder what it will take to realign the two, but then quickly turn from those thoughts due to their extreme apocolyptic nature.

 

 

And stop blaming people, countries, religions, and civilizations. It only excaserbates the issues we are facing. Put your focus on solutions and what you can do to maximize peace, survival, and the survival of peace itself.

 

 

 

 

Buffy - A quick nod to you in recognition of your point regarding Gore and the Jungle. Thanks for the informed perspective you continue to share and articulate.

 

 

 

The fight for resources is in full swing, and those that cooperate will ultimately win.

 

What I see is my country becoming increasingly more frightened and more authoritarian and fascist.

"Freedom of indformation" no longer exists.

Governments are increasingly more secretive and probably corrupt.

The Liberal/National party just spent (in the last year) 1/4 of a billion on tax-payer paid advertising to help keep it in power.

Why?

How many $s do they get for this?

The Federal Police, ATG's, Immigration have a culture that is authoritarian and bigoted.

There is increasing disregard for the rule of law and Civil Liberties.

NSW Council for Civil Liberties

 

It is very sad and frightening.

What is the "War on Terror" if it is not to support these very principles that are now being undermined?