Economics and free market

[Zythryn]

Z, let me ask a few questions, they will only require a yes or no answer:

My apologies questor, I missed this earlier.

 

1. did you vote for Bush in either presidential election?

No, although I don't want this to get sidetracked into a political debate.

 

2. are you over 50?

No

 

3. are you pleased in your current job?

Yes (at least, my previous job, I am currently looking for what I want to do next, but I can promise you it will be something I enjoy

 

4. did your education play a large part in your current job?

No, not directly.

 

5. do you think the US should have a better economic system?

This is tricky, but I would have to say Yes. There is always room for improvement.

 

6. do you think Americans should have a shorter work week?

If you are referring to the 40 hour work week, I think that is just fine. I know some people work many more hours and some work far fewer.

 

7. do you think the rich should pay higher taxes?

Yes, I feel those that earn more should pay more. However I don't believe the tax system should punish accomplishment with extrordinarily high rates.

 

8. should the doctors have their incomes reduced so we can have cheaper healthcare?

No, as Pyrotex said, insurance rates should be less, frivilous (sp?) lawsuits should also be brought under control.

This question takes a longer answer:

can you mention 6 human traits or qualities that you admire?

 

Sure:

1. Self responsibility

2. Optimism

3. Bravery

4. Rational thought

5. Truthfulness

6. Empathy

(not necessarily in that order)

[Pyrotex]

Pyrotex, ...I do think the rich ( over $500,000/yr. ) should probably pay a larger graduated percentage, but I don't see it a privilege to pay someone who has all the opportunities our country offers but does nothing in return. ...

Just out of curiosity, why did you not vote for Bush in his first election?

Who said anything about the rich paying those who do nothing? The rich (should willingly) pay taxes for concert halls, libraries, zoos, bridges, parks, museums and upkeep on National parks and forests.

 

The (bad luck) poor should be supported (temporarily) out of Social Security.

 

Didn't vote for Bush due to his outrageously nasty, lying, reprehensible campaign ads. His dirty win-at-any-cost tactics were disgusting. Made me ashamed to be a conservative. So I voted for the other party.

[questor]

Z, I knew you were under 50 because of your idealistic attitude. I applaud you for the traits you admire. These traits, along with ambition and hard work usually produce a successful person. Would you agree with this concept?

[questor]

Pyro, the rich do pay a much larger percentage of total taxes. 434 billion

goes to the welfare budget. you must have your own ideas as to the worthiness of the recipients. I must also mention that whenever I go to a museum or concert, there is usually a list of contributors to that facility listed in the lobby. Public radio is also supported by contributions, as are many philanthropic efforts. The real question to me is this: what are the poor doing to help themselves? You can only feed and clothe his body with welfare, you can't enlarge his mind..he must do that himself.

[Zythryn]

Z, I knew you were under 50 because of your idealistic attitude. I applaud you for the traits you admire. These traits, along with ambition and hard work usually produce a successful person. Would you agree with this concept?

 

Q, I would agree with the concept that 'more often than not' someone with those traits will be successful. However, there will also be people with all of those traits that are not successful and there will also be people with none of those traits that are not succesful.

I am not willing to sterotype succesful or unsuccesful people.

As said before, people's success has as much to do with bad or good luck as their attributes.

 

And don't paint me a rose colored sunglasses optimist. I am quite cynical when it comes to our political system and how scientific knowledge is dismissed by marketers and big business if it gets in the way of big money.

[Zythryn]

Pyro, the rich do pay a much larger percentage of total taxes.

 

While this would seem to be true, ask Warren Buffet how much he pays in taxes vs his secretary.

 

The real question to me is this: what are the poor doing to help themselves? You can only feed and clothe his body with welfare, you can't enlarge his mind..he must do that himself.

 

Some do quite a bit. Far more than I could ever have the strength to do. Such as this example: Single mother of five finds her way from welfare to work.

Sure, I am sure there are some 'poor' that don't feel they can get out of the poorhouse so they don't. But just as sure as I am of that, I am also sure there are many more poor that work very hard to get out of the hole they are in.

[questor]

Yeah, I guess you're right, Bill Gates , Warren Buffet, Tiger Woods, Michael

Jordan, Steve Jobs, John D Rockefeller, John Jacob Astor, Oprah Winfrey and all the others just got very lucky. No use in discussing the traits that put them where they are. There is another standout trait of successful people, maturity of attitude.

[questor]

Z, this is your quote:

''Some do quite a bit. Far more than I could ever have the strength to do. Such as this example: Single mother of five finds her way from welfare to work.

Sure, I am sure there are some 'poor' that don't feel they can get out of the poorhouse so they don't. But just as sure as I am of that, I am also sure there are many more poor that work very hard to get out of the hole they are in.''

You just don't get it! What do you think the single mother had inside of her

that propelled her upward? Do you think she exhibited the traits I listed for poor people? Why can't you understand that successful traits tend to push people upward and people who don't move up are the opposite. This is not rocket science. All you have to do is interview successful people to understand why they are successful. Why don't you read ''The Millionaire Next Door'', or the life of any successful person?

[Mike C]

I vehemently disagree.

 

I've been in a wheelchair all my life. I cannot wield hammer and shovel, chisel and lathe, or whatever other tools you think enable a "worker" to "produce wealth".

 

However, I do have an inordinately good education, and I can type. I have made my living for 30 years "creating wealth" for companies and their employees: computer applications, more effective procedures, faster ways of analyzing data, training courses, communication techniques, proposals, designs, etc.

 

Well, you are doing manual labor because you are using your hands.

Because of your education, you are using your brains to create efficiency in company affairs. In this case, you are working for the employer. So you are not doing this for yourself.

So therefore, you are not a capitalist but rather a white collar worker.

 

The Market Place decides automatically what each person's labor is worth.

 

Are you telling me that the US workers doing manual work are worth only the wages that the Chinese workers do for say, Wallmart?

 

And about the free market idea and competition?

When Wallmart decides to set up shop in some area that has small businesses, to compete with them, is that your idea of fair competition?

 

When I say manual labor, I mean the use of 'hands'. So that can include the light work that others can do.

That can include the clerical workers and the small tech components that may use hands rather than machines that would do most of this work.

 

Mike C

[Zythryn]

You just don't get it! What do you think the single mother had inside of her

that propelled her upward?

 

Q, I do get it. You are the one that is not getting it.

The same woman that lifted herself up out of a very bad situation, was once herself... POOR.

You can't say in one breath that all poor people are lazy and then say 'look at this wonderful example!'

Someone you call lazy because they are poor today may be rich the next.

Issues OTHER than these traits (which are quite benificial) can be the cause of people finding themselves in bad situations.

 

And how do you know I haven't read 'The Millionaire Next Door'?

 

If your crack about Bill Gates, etc was directed at me, you failed to understand the reference to Warren Buffet. Take a breath, slow down and read. My reference to Warren Buffet was to refute your statement that the rich pay more in taxes. Typically the very rich pay a smaller percentage of their wealth than the middle class. As shown by the fact that Warren Buffet has a smaller percentage of his income taxed than his secretary.

[Zythryn]

Because of your education, you are using your brains to create efficiency in company affairs. In this case, you are working for the employer. So you are not doing this for yourself.

 

Mike, I think you could help a lot of us understand you better if you would specifically give examples of someone that isn't doing 'real work' or producing anything 'real' in your opinion.

From the above quote, are you saying that if you use your brains to work for your employer it is 'real work' but if you are using your brains for your own good (i.e. you are the owner) it isn't 'real work'?

[Mike C]

what manual work creates real wealth? Is not the real wealth in the mind?

Are you saying that teachers, poets, physicists, inventors, music composers and the other workers of the mind do not create things of lasting ,true wealth? Do you want everyone to be a laborer or a farmer? what is your highest goal for a human being? Where do you think jobs come from? Isn't it that someone with a good mind creates jobs for others? When manually created things crumble with age or neglect, good ideas, beautiful music,and the benefits of science and technology will still be with us. What is ''real wealth''?

 

The real wealth I generally consider to be created like the 'blue collar' workers do and you can include the 'white collar' workers that do the lighter jobs that can be included in this creation of real wealth although their product cannot be sold to the man on the street that is the finished product are:

Examples of BCW's products are the skyscrapers, bridges, roads and highways, houses, automobiles, ships, aeroplanes and etc.

Than you have the service personel like the police, firemen, water maintenance personel, office personel and etc.

You can include the lower management personel also.

 

Then at the top, you have the capitalists that do practically nothing but listen to their 'board of directors' for ideas. Than they impliment what they think is best for the company.

They may play a round of golf with a business client or enjoy a gourmet lunch in a restaurant to discuss a business deal.

There are other things they can do but that would make them look still worse, so I will leave that out.

 

Mike C

[Pyrotex]

Mike, I think you could help a lot of us understand you better if you would specifically give examples of someone that isn't doing 'real work' ...

Yes, Mike, I am with Zythryn on this.

Your "point", if indeed you still have one, seems to wander all over the map. When we give counter-examples to your opinions of why the poor are poor, you change your opinions or you just ignore our counter-examples. You refuse to be pinned down to a concrete, specific point of view, and this is getting annoying and unproductive.

 

Of course, it MAY be that your inability to defend a specific concrete point of view points to a major FLAW in your stated opinions. I'm just saying. :shrug: I would love it if you proved me wrong and stopped flitting about.

 

For example, why isn't performing a "service" real work in your opinion?

 

...Then at the top, you have the capitalists that do practically nothing but listen to their 'board of directors' for ideas...

 

You really, REALLY don't have the first clue of an idea what business executives do, do you? :) :ip: :)

[Pyrotex]

Pyro, the rich do pay a much larger percentage of total taxes. 434 billion goes to the welfare budget. you must have your own ideas as to the worthiness of the recipients. I must also mention that whenever I go to a museum or concert, there is usually a list of contributors to that facility listed in the lobby. Public radio is also supported by contributions, as are many philanthropic efforts. The real question to me is this: what are the poor doing to help themselves? You can only feed and clothe his body with welfare, you can't enlarge his mind..he must do that himself.

Sure, some taxes go to entitlement programs. Far, far more goes to the defense budget. But I notice you don't complain about the rich having to pay for B-2 bombers and flak jackets. :shrug: :ip:

 

Your posts make it sound like ALL the taxes paid by the rich go straight to lazy welfare queens. This is not merely misleading, but it undermines the valid points you make. You kinda shoot yourself in the foot when you insist on this style of wording and phrasing.

 

Sure, there are individual contributors to museums and Public Radio, blah, blah. True enough. But taxes ALSO go to support much of our social infrastructure.

 

{To Questor and Mike C:} The poor do whatever the poor do. They are not a homogenous class of humans, all with the same attitudes and character-flaws. Not all of them chose to be poor, and not all of them are going to stay poor.

 

As far as I can see, a properly administered "welfare" system should (1) prevent people {especially babies and children} from dying in the streets {unless they really want to} and thereby causing unpleasant sanitary conditions and obstructing traffic.

 

It should also (2) provide opportunities for getting out of poverty {and a reasonable alternative to a life of crime}. You may define this as liberally or as cruelly as you wish. But THIS is where the poor get to do something for themselves, similar to pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. This is where welfare is something like a staircase. It enables one to walk up out of the dark dank cellar and into the light of day. However, it is not an escalator.

 

As for the poor who wish to take advantage of (1) but not (2)... I dunno. I have some sympathy for some of them, at any rate, but I don't spend a lot of time on it. I don't want my taxes wasted, but at the same time, I don't want to have to drive around panhandlers, bums and decomposing bodies on my way to work in the morning. {Personally, I think it's damned insensitive of the poor to die when they don't get enough food, but hey, that's just me.}

 

So, I tend to accept a compromise in these matters. I am willing to put up with SOME of my taxes being wasted, and with SOME poor getting a "free ride" to nowhere, as long as the general level of misery and suffering in this country is low enough that the poor don't dominate the daily news programs.

 

We all have our own particular place where we "draw the line". I have mine and you have yours. In a democracy, we get to enjoy the privilege of compromising on these unanswerable questions and unsolvable problems, thereby freeing up our time and talents to do other things, like designing spaceships and learning how to play bridge.

 

:) ;) :D Thank you very much. :D ;) :)

[LaurieAG]

You really, REALLY don't have the first clue of an idea what business executives do, do you? :P :) ;)

 

Hi Pyrotex,

 

I have experienced extremely competent business executives who have treated everybody equally and made sure that all team members pull their fair weight, and I have worked for a bunch of amatuers who play favourites with people who bludge and then churn and burn their competent employees.

 

I have first hand experience of favoured people who have been paid well to do nothing apart from making life hell for the people doing the actual work.

[Michaelangelica]

"Economics and free market "

is the name of this thread.

Does anyone know of anywhere on earth where there exists a "free market" ?

 

Does anyone believe that Economics is a real science with real predictive powers? Or do economists just build impossible, simplistic, unreal models in the sky?

 

Bill Gates? Bill Gates is a thief with monopoly powers that he uses.. He merely knocked off the Mac OS and made a lousy copy of it. He should be rewarded for this?.

[Mike C]

Pyrotex and others:

 

To answer individually and specifically is time consuming, I will just say why I think and do what I believe in regarding economics.

 

Our US Constitution mandates some degree of equality in our society. Now this does not mean that all are created equal economically.

My opinion is that once a person reaches a degree of subsistence that is satisfactory to him/her, they will not pursue any addiotional wealth since there is no need to.

 

We have equality in the sports arenas, education opportunity, workplaces, voting booths and etc. You can qualify that since their is some discrimination in all these areas.

 

But the general population does not have access to the politicians like the wealthy do. So their influence of the politicians gives them some welfare they are not entitled to have. Especially the tax cuts.

The power at the top (CEO's) have ways to enhance their incomes because they appoint the directors on their boards and these boards compensate them to incomes they do not deserve IMO.

Such freebies are shortchanging the stockholders, workers and even the government taxes that some freebies avoid like 'stock options'.

 

As I have said before, only workers (BC) produce the 'real tangible wealth'.

Brains just motivate the body parts. However, they do contribute to productivity indirectly as a small fraction.

An example of this is the other animals that have no means for creating material wealth.

Only humans can create this type of wealth. Why is this? Because, as I have said, we have (BC) HANDS.

So why does the capitalist conservatives wage war on the workers unions that represent their interests as our CN mandates?

 

I could go on and on as to why I oppose capitalism as a free enterprise withour controls that allows them to enrich themsalves to incomes they do not deserve IMO.

Sharing the wealth contributes to a thriving economy that would benefit all the people.

 

Nuff said.

 

Mike C