Double Positives and Double Negatives

[freeztar]

Isn't he never on time?

mmm-humph, I've never not seen him walk in late.

[Qfwfq]

It is certainly important to distinguish bad grammar from other cases. Now the case of:

 

"you can NOT expect me NOT to do"

 

isn't a case of bad grammer, it makes sense and is clearly not equivalent to:

 

"you can (NOT NOT) expect me to do"

 

because the first implies "I might" but, unlike the second, doesn't imply "I will". Cases such as "not unremarkable" are called understatements, a form of subtle humour by which the double negation is meant as being enhancive. It is likewise a form of humour when a double positive such as "yeah, sure" is meant as an enhanced negation.

[LaurieAG]

Cases such as "not unremarkable" are called understatements, a form of subtle humour by which the double negation is meant as being enhancive. It is likewise a form of humour when a double positive such as "yeah, sure" is meant as an enhanced negation.

 

Hi Q, good point,

 

It seems that a society develops linguistic sophistication as it develops a sense of humour.

 

But these types of structures can originate within a distinct group in society (like an inside joke) before becoming more widespread. I once wrote a Communications studies paper called 'When does a message become noise? when does noise become a message?', and, to me anyway, these types of things all depend on the context.

[Qfwfq]

Yeah, humour is much related to our intelligence, and intelligence is necessary for the message not to be noise.

[Turtle]

The community was shocked at the news of the terrible murder. :)

[Turtle]

The clerk took a bad beating. :doh:

[mynah]

It seems a bit strange that you have no reactions from your South African members, since in Afrikaans the double negative is absolutely standard. (This first sentence in Afrikaans would become something like "... no reactions from none of your South African members")

In French, there is a problem : "jamais" as an exclamation means "never", but if used in a sentence, it has to be matched by "ne"

But double negative iare colloquially used in many local variants of Dutch as well, and I think in many other languages, too. I do remember hearing things like "nobody told me nothing..."

"Nobody told me nothing" would be bad Afrikaans if directly translated, though. The actual sentence would translate to something more like "Nobody did me anything tell not." (No wonder foreign languages are hard to learn...)

 

An interesting (and often baffling, to others) expression used as a reply in Afrikaans is "Ja-nee", which translates literally as "Yes-no", and means, more or less, "Agreed".

[lemit]

I love "Ja-nee." I wish it were English.

 

I'm endlessly fascinated by the hyper-language of such usages as "terrible" or "tragic" deaths. I like to apply compensations to that kind of language. If we were disgustingly honest, we all might be able to think of a death or two we would consider happy.

 

I have a parallel universe in which a man will sometimes leave his "lovely" wife at home and arrive at a social event with one of the several ugly ones he keeps (for good reason) at home. In that universe I subscribe to "Unpopular Science." The latest issue has some fascinating stories on genetic engineering and elective surgery.

 

But more about my parallel universe some other time. Right now I have a foul-tasting meal awaiting me.

 

--lemit

 

Do I need to say that I'm retired and have a lot of time on my hands?

[maddog]

One I heard often growing up in southern Indiana... (in answer to did you know something):

 

"I don't know nothing!"

 

maddog

 

ps: on a parallel note consider another one...

 

"..., same difference".

[pamela]

posted by maddog

"..., same difference".

I never could figure that one out! Not a double positive/negative but you reminded me of something that i first heard when i moved down south. It was cold out and my friend went in to get her toboggan. Odd, i thought, there isn't any snow....

upon her return, now donning a hat, she informed me that was the name of a ski cap. Apparently this is a common cap term in NC, i cannot imagine how it originated.

[mynah]

Because it rhymes with noggin? Probably not, but not impossible...:D

[pamela]

Because it rhymes with noggin? Probably not, but not impossible...

too funny!!!

the toboggan jarred their noggin resulting in bad loggin' from too much groggin';)

[CraigD]

"..., same difference".

I grew up (in southern West Virginia) with this idiom, so despite its odd wording, it’s immediately sensible to me. “Same difference”, a contraction of “that is the same difference” or “those have the same difference” means “the preceding are not identical, but are not significantly different”. It’s always used as a complete sentence, never as a phrase within a sentence, ie:

Alice:

Should I used red or blue?

Bob:

Same difference

.

never

Red and blue are same difference.

I find it a useful idiom among people familiar with it, because it’s conveys it’s meaning with fewer syllables and distracting or unfamiliar side-concepts than longer equivalents. Attempted replacements using more standard wording, like “no difference” “not much different” don’t convey the same meaning, because “no difference” fails to convey that some difference between the referents exist, while “not much different” fails to convey that the difference is not significant.

 

“Whatever” can be a reasonable replacement for “same difference”, but can imply disinterest or dismissiveness not usually contained in “same difference”.

 

I’ve known people with whom the “same difference” idiom is practically the only one that can convey its message. Using the word “significant” negatively impresses such people as highfalutin’, while as noted above, other non-highfalutin’ phrases don’t convey the necessary meaning. However, in my old home region, even academic and technical people used the idiom in otherwise very precise conversation, though almost never in writing.

 

It’s not a double negative or emphatic multiple positive, but rather a juxtaposition of opposites, like “tall-short” and “fat-skinny” (a couple I’ve never heard outside of a David Bowie song, or from people impressed with the song).

It was cold out and my friend went in to get her toboggan. Odd, i thought, there isn't any snow....

upon her return, now donning a hat, she informed me that was the name of a ski cap. Apparently this is a common cap term in NC, i cannot imagine how it originated.

I’m pretty sure it’s a contraction of “tobogganing hat” or something similar. It’s one of the more common ones, I think. Others that comes quickly to mind are “bomber” for “bombardier’s jacket”, the kind of leather jacket worn by WWII flight crews, “bowler” for “bowler’s hat”, a short-brimmed, typically felt hat, and “highwaters” for “high water pants”, a style of mid-length trousers.

 

I’ve heard “toboggan” used to refer to a hat throughout the US, not just in the South.

[Turtle]

...I’ve known people with whom the “same difference” idiom is practically the only one that can convey its message. ...

 

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[CraigD]

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Though I’ve a sense of its idiomatic meaning, that’s one that’s always seemed weird to me. It means, I think “the preceding are the same thing with different names”, as does the flowerier “a rose by any other name [would smell as sweet]”, but always make me think of example like “six apples, half a dozen helicopters??”.

 

I’ve encountered an variation on “six of one, half a dozen of the other” spoken “six, one, half dozen, another”. My grandparents, many-generations Connecticuters, used this, and could only expand it back into its longer, more sensible form, with a bit of mental effort.

[maddog]

I grew up (in southern West Virginia) with this idiom, so despite its odd wording, it’s immediately sensible to me. “Same difference”, a contraction of “that is the same difference” or “those have the same difference” means “the preceding are not identical, but are not significantly different”. It’s always used as a complete sentence, never as a phrase within a sentence, ie:

Alice:

Should I used red or blue?

Bob:

Same difference

.

never

Red and blue are same difference.

One thing that always bothered me is even if "same difference" is somewhat allowable,

why is not the opposite "different same" is not ?

 

maddog

[maddog]

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I used to make a pun of it

 

"Six of one half, a dozen of the other". Though I am just an Ol' Indiana boy!

 

maddog