sanctus Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 I know of many priests, pastors and normal believers which join the army and even go to war. Isn't that hypocritical right at the basis?Theay preach for peace in the world, they preach the comdment you hall not kill, but they still do and/or sustain it. What do you think? And how can they still think to do as god wants them to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 I know of many priests, pastors and normal believers which join the army and even go to war. Isn't that hypocritical right at the basis?Theay preach for peace in the world, they preach the comdment you hall not kill, but they still do and/or sustain it. What do you think? And how can they still think to do as god wants them to?Hey sanctus; don't you believe that defending your home land is an honorable cause. People join the service for a multitude of different reasons, one of which is to serve their country. Self defense is common to every individual, weather christain or otherwise. Our national interests depend upon our ability to support a standing Army. Without this force we would be unable to resist an attack from without. It's called survival, important for both believers and nonbelievers alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishEyes Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Ok, sanctus, here I am... There are many people of many faiths in the military in the US. Besides the people that just join to go to war (yes, there are MANY), there are benefits, college money, travel, getting away from home, and yes, the chance to serve your country. The US does not currently have mandatory military service, unlike some of the European countries. I have heard you and Tormod both mention being concientious objectors, saying that you chose to do civil/community service instead of joining the military. That's fine for you, I guess. Personally, I guess as long as you're not screaming in my face while I'm in the military, and you don't call me a baby-killer, I guess it's your perogative. If it were up to me, I think EVERYone should spend at least a few years in the military. But that is worth a whole topic alone. Yes, I'm a Christian. That is part of who I am. I am also an American. My family has a very long history of military service, and that is something that we are all very proud of. Kinda like Lt. Dan's family in Forest Gump, we've had people in every single conflict since the War of 1812... Rather long and distinguished... but my grandfather had three girls... and not one of them joined the service, although they all married military men at one time or another... only 2 grandsons, and neither of them joined the military... so i decided to take the plunge. there really wasn't any thought of being Christian, as I wasn't at the time... my mother raised us in church, but i was out on my own and refused to entertain the notion of any type of God, unless you counted my body or money... so there was no internal conflict about killing vs. murder... i had NRP (no religious preference) on my dog tags... i went to chapel in basic training because i could talk to guys there, not for the worship service... i was, and still am, very patriotic... i think in this country, it is packaged as a 2fer, you get to salute your flag and be a good Christian all at once - defend the rights of the people who want to scream at you for going to war, etc... although, there were actually quite a few Jewish and Islamics when I was in... as well as many people of other faiths... it's just very different in the US, i guess... anyhow, not really sure what you are asking... did i feel like a hypocrite for being part of a military and still believing in God? no, because i didn't believe in God then... but then again, i still don't think it's hypocritical, though many wouldn't agree... and I believe it is their right to disagree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I have heard you and Tormod both mention being concientious objectors, saying that you chose to do civil/community service instead of joining the military. for the record: My reason for objection is pacifism. Would I defend my country if needed? Yes. But I believe in non-violent actions. I do accept that sabotage and counter-terrorism are necessary acts in a war. I do not think I could carry a gun, because it is against everything I am. But 98% of my friends have been to the army and none of us have a problem with either choice (although some like to call me chicken. That's what you get for standing up for your convictions). Personally, I guess as long as you're not screaming in my face while I'm in the military, and you don't call me a baby-killer, I guess it's your perogative. If it were up to me, I think EVERYone should spend at least a few years in the military. But that is worth a whole topic alone. Yes. I don't get your point here about screaming in your face (are you saying we should not speak up because we are opposed to armed intervention? I assume that is not your point...). Maybe we should start a thread on that. Sanctus? As for the topic. This is a Big Issue for the US armed forces. See any war movie about US war participation (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) and it's always a fight in the name of God, even if it is usually just an underlying given. I think it is an *extremely* problematic issue because it makes any war the US is involved in seem like a crusade - lastly the Gulf war, part 2 - and that has some elements of religious fundamentalism in it that I really don't like. Americans may not see it, but it becomes very obvious to Europeans who are not used to conflicts being based on religion (well, not WARS based on religion, to be more specific...). But I think that when you first go to war, sending priests is important for morale and also gives a lot of the soldiers someone to talk to, even if they are not religious. I don't think a priest in a war is the same as, say, doctors helping torturers in a dictatorship. It's a completely different issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Hey sanctus; don't you believe that defending your home land is an honorable cause. People join the service for a multitude of different reasons, one of which is to serve their country. Self defense is common to every individual, weather christain or otherwise. Infamous, with all due respect, I fail to see how you answer Sanctus' question. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Can you elaborate? Do you think it is perfectly okay for the US army to go to war in the name of the Christian God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanctus Posted January 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Hey sanctus; don't you believe that defending your home land is an honorable cause. People join the service for a multitude of different reasons, one of which is to serve their country. Self defense is common to every individual, weather christain or otherwise. Our national interests depend upon our ability to support a standing Army. Without this force we would be unable to resist an attack from without. It's called survival, important for both believers and nonbelievers alike. No I don't think it's a honorable cause if it implies war, I think dying for a country is stupid.There exists no situation where war was/is the only answer possible, there are always non-violent ways just they are harder. That's why I think that it is hypocrytical to join an army and pretend to be for peace (what all believers usually claim to be for).You may bring the pseudo-counter-example of the US coming to Europe to end the second world war and say that there it was the only solution. Well that's wrong, there would have been many pacific solutions, they just needed to take action before (not letting gemany in mysery for example, with no rights, etc.). Personal self-defense has nothing to do with and national army, take Costa Rica a country without an army between panama and Nicaragua who had a long war against each other. Has been invaded? No. Therefore there are other ways to defend a country than an army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanctus Posted January 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Ok, sanctus, here I am... There are many people of many faiths in the military in the US. Besides the people that just join to go to war (yes, there are MANY), there are benefits, college money, travel, getting away from home, and yes, the chance to serve your country. already I don't see it as an important thing to serve your country, it's much more important to serve humanity, what can't be done with an army. You may say that an army in peace-keeping missions does actually serve humanity. Are you sure that they do? How can you hope to make an enduring peace imposing peace? How can there be enduring peace if you needed force to make peace? There needs to be the will of both sides to make peace that it will work, if you force them they may well live in peace for a couple of years, but it's an instable state, just something small is enough and the conflict raises again (see Kosovo for example).by the way, there also other ways to travel where you can go where you want. I have a course now, so I'll continue my answer later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I wonder if it is inevitable that this thread will turn into a thread about war, not the religious aspects of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanctus Posted January 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 The US does not currently have mandatory military service, unlike some of the European countries. I have heard you and Tormod both mention being concientious objectors, saying that you chose to do civil/community service instead of joining the military. That's fine for you, I guess. Personally, I guess as long as you're not screaming in my face while I'm in the military, and you don't call me a baby-killer, I guess it's your perogative. If it were up to me, I think EVERYone should spend at least a few years in the military. But that is worth a whole topic alone. Yes, start a topic about the last statement, that would become a nice discussion.It's my philosophy of life to accept other ideas, you can't talk about respect and then not have towards those who think completely differently from you. So, I want scream at your face because you do/did the military, I just find it sad that you didn't think further (or in the way) to come the conclusion that it's more useful to you and to everyone to do something else than use/teach/learn violence. Violence even if you think it's for a good cause still rests violence. Pause, is finished I'll continue later.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishEyes Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Americans may not see it, but it becomes very obvious to Europeans who are not used to conflicts being based on religion (well, not WARS based on religion, to be more specific...). Oh, ok. sure. You are right... I can think of... oh wait, I guess I'm really tired right now or something... Can you tell me which WAR, or conflict, or whatever, that the Europeans have been involved in that have not been based on religion in any form? Sorry, but I just think it's rather silly for you to basically say that Europeans don't get involved in wars based on religion like the US does... seems rather pot-and-kettle-ish to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishEyes Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 already I don't see it as an important thing to serve your country, it's much more important to serve humanity, what can't be done with an army. and there are people in uniform that die every single day to defend your right to think and say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Infamous, with all due respect, I fail to see how you answer Sanctus' question. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Can you elaborate? Do you think it is perfectly okay for the US army to go to war in the name of the Christian God?Tormod; I think if you will notice in my quote, I draw no distingtion between believer and nonbeliever. The will to survive as a nation is my point, because I am a member of this nation, I will defend it. The freedom that I enjoy to believe however I choose, is a result of many sacrificies made by many others, and I choose to defend that ideal also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I think, though I cannot be sure, that one reason most americans can view war in a more favorable light, a glorified light, is that we have not had an invading army on our soil since the War of 1812 with Britain. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are the closest we have come to being attacked. Without knowing much about war, it is easy to desensitize oneself, and view it as the 'evil' enemy, who wants to harm us, and the 'good' americans, who are defending us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I wonder if it is inevitable that this thread will turn into a thread about war, not the religious aspects of it.Excellent thought Tormod; If we will attend to this question, and not allow ourselves to become weighted down with quesions of morality, as some have suggested as being only relative to views of right and wrong. How many times have I heard on different threads posted here that right and wrong are only subjective, what is right today will be wrong tomarrow. Something tells me that sometimes war is right, and sometimes ist's wrong. I'm sure that someone here will find cause to argue the point however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Oh, ok. sure. You are right... I can think of... oh wait, I guess I'm really tired right now or something... Can you tell me which WAR, or conflict, or whatever, that the Europeans have been involved in that have not been based on religion in any form? You mean apart from the Napolean wars, the French-British war, Hundred Years War, World War I, World War II? WWII was not fought for religious reasons but it was a battle for many religious people to survive (for example, the persecution of the Jews). However, the US army seems unable to go to any war without having God on their side. They go to war with blessings from the President and God. Why? Why is it necessary? Sorry, but I just think it's rather silly for you to basically say that Europeans don't get involved in wars based on religion like the US does... seems rather pot-and-kettle-ish to me... Fine. I wasn't exactly expecting you to agree on this. :hihi: But the point I was trying to make is that wars fought on European soil tend to be non-religious, and those that are, tend not to be large scale. I am not saying there are no religious conflicts in Europe...look at Turkey, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Tormod; I think if you will notice in my quote, I draw no distingtion between believer and nonbeliever. The will to survive as a nation is my point, because I am a member of this nation, I will defend it. The freedom that I enjoy to believe however I choose, is a result of many sacrificies made by many others, and I choose to defend that ideal also. Okay, this debate is a potential land mine so I'll try to tread lightly. You fail to answer BOTH Sancus and myself...I was asking if it was okay to go to war in God's name. You keep talking about defending your country regardless of religion. I don't think there are a lot of Europeans who buy the Gulf War (nor Korea, nor Vietnam) as a self defence thing. It's a World Cop thing. The freedom you enjoy to do a lot of things comes from many things, for example science, trade, education, oil. It does not come from fighting wars halfway across the globe - at least not in the past 65 years, although doing that is a great way to maintain a military industry which produces vast amounts of money. Most people in Europe enjoy the same "freedoms" you have in the US - probably even to a larger extent. We have a higher population, too, yet we have smaller armies. That doesn't mean our political leaders are any wiser than yours - France, Germany, Britain, Spain, Italy, Sweden, and a lot of other countries here (yes, even Norway) went to Iraq to fight for, er, your "freedom". It was not a religious war for us. It was a war some of us had to fight because your president threatened your allies with his infamous "Either you're with us, or you're against us" phrase. Sorry...I am having trouble concluding this post. I'll just end here and try to answer some of the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 and there are people in uniform that die every single day to defend your right to think and say that. And there are even more people without uniforms who die every single day to defend your right to think and say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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