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How soon will a moneyless society change the way we percieve each other?


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#18 TheFaithfulStone

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 12:54 PM

When I refer to a truly moneyless society, I mean a way of life which does not weigh the worth of a human being in money or property, but treasures that person simpy because he/she is a human being and as such, a member of, potentially, the most evolved species in the known universe.


Okay, you don't mean a moneyless society, you mean a society without society. (I'd also note that B doesn't necessarily follow A there. Maybe we treasure people not by money or property but by fertility or humor.)

Society (the way you use the term) is ABOUT setting up little tribal affiliations and packs of "us and them" and valuing people by some external (unrelated) criteria. What would you propose society would DO if it didn't give us the framework in which to evaluate people?

I'm assuming that by "society" you mean neither "economy","collection of rich people", or "political system" but "shared social moral system between a group of individuals" - which I find to be basically equivalent to "cultural mores" - which in order to function at all require that you BE A PART of said culture. Otherwise -- well you don't really share the morals do you?

Like most forms of utopias, and perfect societies, etc it has a hidden cost - which is that everyone has to get on board at the same time and then STAY on board. Then there has to be a way to enforce the conformity which is necessary for that kind singularity of purpose. Normally that kind of group solidarity is achieved through rituals, community events, and other shared practices. It's called communitas and you gotta get it if you want everybody to feel like they're part of some "bigger" than themselves.

Even if you could somehow structure your perfect society so that everyone is included and you don't have to have an "other" to pit all your member against - what will you do when somebody gets "off the reservation?" Gonna kill 'em outright? Brain surgery? Drugs?

Utopias are always the most dangerous societies to live in.

Eventually though you're just valuing people by how much they conform to your main principle there (of valuing everybody equally)- which of course is a violation of your main principle.

TFS

#19 Peacemaker

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 02:04 PM

Hi Buffy, have you had a bad day? You sound much more negative and abrupt today than previously. Clearly you didn't read, or understand the answers I gave to your questions. Please try to understand what I am telling you. There are no proofs. This has never been succesfully attempted before.
This is new. For a simple idea, it takes all your cognitive process to calm down enough to actually think about it. You may think you currently know, better than I do, how to improve the lot of mankind on this planet. I don't believe you do, I believe that you are having the usual knee-jerk reaction to a theory you have no knowledge of. It's a wall I have to batter down every time I speak to somebody new about this. It usually takes between two and five hours. By then, normally intelligent people realise that I, as an intelligent man, have thought about this for more than five minutes, and that I can demonstrate exactly what I am talking about, given a chance.This is not a mathematical formula. It is a way of being. Have faith, and continue reading, but with an open mind.

Peacemaker.

#20 Peacemaker

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 02:23 PM

Hi Doug,

'I think I’ve a reasonable understanding of the subject of “moneyless society”, but not your particular views on it, Peacemaker. I look forward to reading them.'
If you wish to get a flavour of my theory, before I introduce the new improved version, try typing WWW.Driftwood.me into your address line. These documents were produced by a man called Melvin Chapman. He is now 92 years old and his writings reflect the predispositions of his time. Despite that, if read with an open mind, his view of the way we currently percieve all that is around us is remarkable. I have to say that I came to my views with no assistance from Melvin's work, however I was impressed with the depth of his perception. Please spend some time reading and understanding these documents, then ask your questions.
Best regards,
Peacemaker.

#21 Buffy

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 02:30 PM

Hi Buffy, have you had a bad day?

Who me? I'm always all positivey! I'm positivey gal! :cup:

Clearly you didn't read, or understand the answers I gave to your questions.

What answers? You sound like a great marketeer! (I am one, so I can make jokes about them!) Your responses so far have all been quite content free: "its *really* cool! honest! it'll solve all the world's ills! all ya gotta do is read 65 pages!"

Hey, I really am quite patient, I'm open to new ideas. All I've done is ask some questions and all of a sudden I'm "negative." I like stuff that works, but you're also not the first one to say what little you've said so far, and I'm just repeating some of the key questions that have proven the downfall of similar propositions.

You may really have something, but I'll repeat: so far you haven't said a thing about what you're proposing except, "its really cool," and imply that it has something to do with not having money around.

Great! Lets *hear* about it! Don't go all defensive just because you're asked questions or people will go all skeptical about you without having heard a thing! Tell us! Talk! Stop hiding! :doh:

It is leading your sheep to a green pasture, and in putting your child to sleep, and in writing the last line of your poem, ;)
Buffy

#22 Peacemaker

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 02:32 PM

I’d like to turn the question around on you, and ask, that you read the hypography thread Moneyless society : Would it benefit society?, and give your opinion on the many points raised there.

Did it, my thoughts on that forum have been added to it. Wasn't impressed. People think that their slick quotes and wild guesses and suppositions will be accepted as effective argument. I beg to differ. In this thread I intend to explore and respond only to arguments which stay within the realms of logic and context.

#23 Buffy

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 02:46 PM

I’d like to turn the question around on you, and ask, that you read the hypography thread Moneyless society : Would it benefit society?, and give your opinion on the many points raised there.

It was interesting! I contributed to it early on. Bottom line is that money has two roles, one as a way of removing the economic friction of barter, and as a standard benchmark for valuing human concepts and assets. Its the latter where things get sticky because of those values being tied up in human nature, as many of the posts in this thread have hinted at.

Did you have any questions you wanted to ask?

Did it, my thoughts on that forum have been added to it. Wasn't impressed. People think that their slick quotes and wild guesses and suppositions will be accepted as effective argument. I beg to differ.

Whoa! Now who's getting all negativey?!?

In this thread I intend to explore and respond only to arguments which stay within the realms of logic and context.

Cool! :cup:

Yes, in this immense confusion one thing alone is clear, ;)
Buffy

#24 Peacemaker

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 03:35 PM

I have offered you the full story, in a mere 65 pages, (Less than 2 hours reading!) and you declined!

Who's really burying their head in the sand?

I gave you answers, which you have totally ignored in your replies to me.
I have found, at massive human and material cost Buffy, (I'll explain that one to you one day soon) that short answers don't do this subject justice. People find it very easy to close their minds to novel ideas. Even, apparently intelligent scientific types, who are supposed to think objectively, look at the hypothesis in full, weigh the evidence and come to some form of balanced conclusion.

As a very pertinent example, look at the replies that have been posted on this thread so far. Sarcasm, doubt and incredulity abound, and all I have offered to you all is a better, more fulfilling, loving life.

Clearly I must appear to be some sort of deranged criminal to offer you such a thing as everlasting peace, without the assistance of some invisible entity we would all have to 'bend a knee' to
What is it about humanity that rejects 'common' sense and goodness in favour of mistrust, illogicality and strife?

There are people replying to this thread who have never had an original thought in their lives. I don't hold it against them, I would just prefer that they don't hold actually having an original train of thought against me, and treat my views with the respect they deserve, until they understand them enough to discuss them intelligently.

Here's a thought about the perverted way we think today. Pornography is considered to be taboo. The very sight of people happily making love to each other is anathema to our society. On the other hand, we permit children and adolescents to view films, TV programmes and cartoons showing people attacking others violently, and being attacked, mutilated and killed in the most gruesome ways that we can imagine, in the name of entertainment. This gives the impression that the most beautiful act that people can participate in is wrong, dirty and depraved, whilst attacking , mutilating or killing other human beings is acceptable, in the form of entertainment. Please, don't just gloss over this argument. Think about it. I will re-iterate a point I tried to make previously. We are human beings, and as such, the most evolved beings in the known universe. A function of the evolution that I foresee is that we will learn to view violence against another human being, in any form, as the most repugnant act we can imagine.

Imagine that.

Peacemaker.

#25 Peacemaker

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 03:47 PM

Creating Nirvana is easy: just kill everyone who disagrees with you,
Buffy buffy Buffy.....
Again with the slick, meanless replies Buffy, surely it wouldn't be Nirvana if people are killed for disagreeing with it, and surely, if there were something to disagree with it wouldn't be Nirvana anyway would it? What do you think?

#26 Buffy

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 03:50 PM

Are we ever going to get a link to this mystical document?

Ride the horse in the direction that it's going, ;)
Buffy

#27 Peacemaker

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 04:00 PM

Hi again Buffy, Here's a chance to think of yourself, not as the resident slayer, but as the resident helper. The document I refer to is a word document. Can you help me to get it onto the site? Although I am capable of original thought, I am no web master.
Thanks in advance,
Peacemaker.

#28 InfiniteNow

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 04:11 PM

Hi again Buffy, Here's a chance to think of yourself, not as the resident slayer, but as the resident helper. The document I refer to is a word document. Can you help me to get it onto the site? Although I am capable of original thought, I am no web master.
Thanks in advance,
Peacemaker.


Click New Reply.
You will now be in the advanced reply editor
Click, toward the top of the screen, the paperclip for "Manage Attachments."
You will get a window to upload the file. Browse your computer for the file and upload.
Close the manage attachments window.
Click the paperclip again, your file will be available for attachment, and once you've selected it, it will appear in your post as a link users can open.


So far, you sound like you are trying to push a new religion, and you're not happy with people who think for themselves. I too want greater peace, but I don't pretend that my ideas on how to achieve this ideal will work for everyone. I'm arrogant, but not that arrogant, and I recognize that peace is not some final destination, but a continual path or journey. I look forward to seeing more.

You will be asked to support your claims, and they will be picked apart piece by piece by any reasonably intelligent reader. Luck be onto you.


;)

#29 Buffy

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 04:15 PM

I can be quite helpful, even to people who treat me like dirt! ;)

Its called adding an attachment: when you reply to a message you'll find a cute little button down below called "Manage Attachments" which will take you through the steps of uploading your word document.

Let us know if you have any difficulty with it!

Are you telling us this has never been seen anywhere else before? My! We're honored!

Even helps those too lazy to help themselves,
Buffy

#30 Edella

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 05:57 PM

... all I have offered to you all is a better, more fulfilling, loving life.



Clearly I must appear to be some sort of deranged criminal to offer you such a thing as everlasting peace...

Peacemaker, please realize that many of us have been offered similar promises of everlasting peace, and are pretty skeptical of such bold claims, and even more so when the person becomes defensive and angry when the "gift" is not immediately accepted.

There are people replying to this thread who have never had an original thought in their lives.

Now, this seems hardly the kind comment I would expect from someone with the secret to everlasting peace. Don Rickles is one of the few people I know of that can get away with hurling insults at his audience and leaving them wanting more.

For all I know, you may have the answers to the world's greatest problems. I assume you want to get your ideas out to as many people as possible? Then please, try to have some patience with your audience. If you are confident that your ideas would bring about significant change for the better, a calmer, less emotionally charged approach will attract a lot more people to the discussion (at least on this forum). And who knows? You might get some worthwhile contributions if you show less frustration and more patience.

Peace.

#31 DougF

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 04:36 PM

Hello: Peacemaker

Peacemaker
Hi Doug,

'I think I’ve a reasonable understanding of the subject of “moneyless society”, but not your particular views on it, Peacemaker. I look forward to reading them.'

thank you, once I read your work I;ll be more then happy to share my views with you.

If you wish to get a flavour of my theory, before I introduce the new improved version,

I'll wait to read your work.

try typing WWW.Driftwood.me into your address line. These documents were produced by a man called Melvin Chapman. He is now 92 years old and his writings reflect the predispositions of his time. Despite that, if read with an open mind, his view of the way we currently percieve all that is around us is remarkable. I have to say that I came to my views with no assistance from Melvin's work, however I was impressed with the depth of his perception. Please spend some time reading and understanding these documents, then ask your questions.
Best regards,
Peacemaker.


Melvin Chapman is a good Wrighter, and I will discuss his work when he joins Hypography and creates a thread. :yeahthat:
and I'll ask questions on your work, after I get to read them. :zip:

#32 LunaWolfe

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 12:56 AM

Thanks to Racoon for clarifying the bible quote.... LOVE of money is the root of all evil. In other words: GREED! Although I think money has helped make it easier for us to BE greedy because we focus on accumulating money rather than on other forms of wealth or happiness.

#33 LunaWolfe

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:04 AM

Like most forms of utopias, and perfect societies, etc it has a hidden cost - which is that everyone has to get on board at the same time and then STAY on board. Then there has to be a way to enforce the conformity which is necessary for that kind singularity of purpose.
Even if you could somehow structure your perfect society so that everyone is included and you don't have to have an "other" to pit all your member against - what will you do when somebody gets "off the reservation?" Gonna kill 'em outright? Brain surgery? Drugs?

Utopias are always the most dangerous societies to live in.

Eventually though you're just valuing people by how much they conform to your main principle there (of valuing everybody equally)- which of course is a violation of your main principle.

TFS


Excellent observations! It is one of the most challenging aspects of trying to work out an improved society.... how to address the challenge of those who don't agree! Heinlien offered the choice of intensive psychotherepy or being sent "over the wall to Coventry". I think that the answer to what to do with dissenters says a lot about the social theory.
I also applaud the observation of valuing people by how they conform to the ideal (which in itself betrays the ideal!) Changing people's thinking, including our own, is more challenging than solving many complex technical problems, and yet thought has such a profound effect on how we live and relate.
Finally, why are Utopias the most dangerous societies to live in? As far as I know, no one has ever had a Utopia to live in! How do we know it's dangerous until we try it?:turtle:

#34 LunaWolfe

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:10 AM

just a note on the url: it needs a ".uk" after the "driftwood.me" (I'm not allowed to post the actual url yet:D")
If you leave off the ".uk" the page won't be found. And since the shortest document there is an 82 page "summary and addendum", I'm looking forward to a mere 65 pages. However, I would think that a writer such as yourself could possibly sumarize for your impatient web audience some of the key points that make the theory make sense.