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Guantanamo Bay: Shame on you, United States


Michaelangelica

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I can't believe what I'm reading. :hihi:

 

It's like -

 

We don't have to feel guilty because we only do
fun
torture. Being drowned several times is no big deal. And we only do it when they don't tell us what we want to hear. If they don't tell us what we what we want to hear, drowning them several times will make them, and than we finally have the truth we were looking for. It doesn't matter if they actually know anything, or participated in any wrongdoing, simulated drowning gets results!

 

 

Has it not been demonstrated that torturing prisoners yields unreliable information? Would you not tell your torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop? What makes you so positive that the people we are holding are even guilty of anything.....because our government claims they did? What if they're wrong? Is this the standard for the treatment of prisoners that we are willing to regress? Would you have the same cavalier attitude knowing that your son or daughter were being treated this way while being held prisoner in some foreign land?

 

Who have we become? Why are we no longer better than this?

 

Are people who rationalize and defend this policy doing so in order to not have to take any responsibilty for the actions of those for whom they voted.....in defense of their political party?

 

Are these Christian values? What would Jesus do?

 

Doesn't this make us just like the so called "evildoers." ;)

 

We are left with no credibility as purveyors of democracy.

Thank you.

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For those of you who hate, envy, criticise, and deplore the USA, why don't you take care of your own part of the world so we can concentrate on taking care of ours? I, for one American,

 

Quite right, I sympathise and understand your attitude.

 

But I don't hate the States, I respect and admire it. But I am finding that increasingly hard to do as you trash your ethics. My experiences with individual Americans have always been friendly, generous and cordial. If at times shallow.

 

If I go to a restaurant and have a lousy meal, and don't intend coming back, I say nothing.

If I like the restaurant I give them a 'blow by blow' on what was wrong with the meal. this hopefully will make it a better restaurant. It is difficult and sometimes stressful to give such feedback and I will not bother unless I think it might be worthwhile.

 

America is in a special place in the world community having made itself the "world's policeman" so it needs to listen to constructive criticism from the world community. Too often criticism and feedback from others in the world is just negated- as you have now- as "Yank -haters." and ignored.

 

The criticism is made because we are concerned about a friend.

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oh woeless me...

 

How do you get a chicken to lay an egg.... build it a barn (Terrorist = Chicken, Barn = Iraq -syrian and iranian observation, Afghanistan - Pakistani observation)

 

How do you entertain the populous... give them reason for existing,

*France, viva la revolution.... giveth

*Marxism, Communism, Utopianism, Hippyism and finally Californication.

 

How do you gain insight into the possibility of future revolutionary western demographics...

Create.

Observational digress from the norm, and piont it out on Utube.

Eaxmples include the hippy movement.

 

The possibility of terrorism as a suburban norm: Cite: 5th Element.

Is all too real.

Recently an Aussie Melbourne boy highlighted the ease at which he can organise a party and "charge for membership", while at the same time, pul and prod the masses (with his parents co-operating on his behalf) ... my guess so-far is that this kid has made $20 grand in under a couple of days.

 

Preparing for the worst... in the hope that society can be kept on it's logarithmic rise to singularity...

-Learn the tactics of the terrorist, and apply that knowledge for the possibilty of the worst outcome.

 

The two types of servants of the western world are those that are called the "Silent Majority" - observing and somewhat understanding the end goal, hence enacting on daily underatakings in a wise and un-inhibited piose.

And the vocal minority: The ones that we(the majority - the silent think tanks) observe, the ones that reguritate each others sound bytes, and care-less about what it is to live, than what it is to "How they will show the world" - 90% of them don't know how to spell Che Guevera.

 

Wailing Research.... see how they wail., count the numbers, take note of the tactics. Prepare for the possibilty "shuting down" the system, in order to alleviate the pressures placed on the Vocal minor mob thought processes.

 

Allow the migration of the vocal mins that are usually more affluent than the common public away from suburbia... give them time to allow for regress and re-invigorated co-operation on thier trend driven stance. It is now easier to observe the dynamics of the system, away from the cities. In the meantime the minority reports end up spreading to outer areas, it can be observed how the dynamics of revolution enact on the unwitting masses.

 

Give the new generation an avenue to vent thier gripes, without having to resort to looking up the "terrorist's handbook" - which would also allow for an upgrade to the server watching the dynamics of the handbook's proliferation. It started with hotmail, and moves on to Facebook (the 30+ office worker's portal to vent) Give them Myspace and the TOR network, see just how they co-operate.

 

Keeping things rolling will be a little more difficult than we might hope. Gen Y and Z, and the folow up ABC's will not be same type of people as thier non-western counterparts. It will be very difficult indeed to convince a Chinese rice pattie farmer to buy a yellow vest and wear it, unless you nano gps it... and if you do nano gps it - will the chinese peasant decied to go onto a blog, via a TOR net and gain support to bring down the system... you know what I hope he does.

 

so what do you gain from my conspiracist insight...

that those that are "concerned", that the rest of us are sheep, are in effect, the biggest sheep of all.

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Getting back to the topic at hand, here are a few articles addressing concerns about Gitmo:

 

McClatchy Washington Bureau | 01/11/2008 | In voiding suit, appellate court says torture is to be expected

...After being held for more than two years, the four men were repatriated to Britain in 2004, where they were freed within 24 hours without facing criminal charges, said Washington lawyer Eric Lewis, who represented them along with the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights.

 

Three of the men — Shafiq Rasul, Asif Iqbal and Rhuhel Ahmed — say they traveled to Afghanistan from Pakistan in October 2001 to provide humanitarian relief but were seized by an Uzbek warlord in northern Afghanistan the next month and sold to U.S. troops for bounty money. The three said they were unarmed and never engaged in combat against the United States.

 

The fourth, Jamal al Harith, said he'd planned to attend a religious retreat in Pakistan in October 2001 but was ordered to leave the country because of animosity toward Britons. When he tried to drive a truck home via Iran and Turkey, he says, his truck was hijacked at gunpoint and he was handed over to the Taliban, who jailed him and accused him of being a spy. When the Taliban fell after the U.S.-led invasion, he was detained and transported to Guantanamo...

 

 

Andy Worthington | Six Years of Guantanamo

...The irony, which became apparent only later, was that the reason that so many of the detainees were not forthcoming in their interrogations was not because they were al-Qaeda terrorists who were trained to resist interrogation, but because they had no information to give. When the government's own documents were analyzed, in reports by the Seton Hall Law School (PDF), and in my book The Guantánamo Files: The Stories of the 774 Detainees in America's Illegal Prison, it became apparent that the majority of the detainees had not been captured by U.S. forces on the battlefield, as alleged, but had been sold to them by their Afghan and Pakistani allies, at a time when bounty payments of $5,000 a head for al-Qaeda and Taliban suspects were widespread...

 

 

Joint Chiefs chairman: close Guantanamo - Yahoo! News

GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba - The chief of the U.S. military said Sunday he favors closing the prison here as soon as possible because he believes negative publicity worldwide about treatment of terrorist suspects has been "pretty damaging" to the image of the United States.

 

"I'd like to see it shut down," Adm. Mike Mullen said in an interview with three reporters who toured the detention center with him on his first visit since becoming chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff last October...

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Racoon, saying that there's nothing to worry about the conditions that terrorists and would-be terrorists are living under in Gitmo, and joking around flatscreen TV's, etc., have you considered the moral implications of holding those people, without them being charged with anything? Forget about the torture craziness, that speaks for itself and is indefensible - but holding them on flimsy premises, with no official charges? Whazzat? How do you defend that? Really?

 

.

 

 

Not joking around, mate.. but rather trivializing and sarcasting.

 

What happened to the few inmates that were released?

They quickly went back to taking arms up against the US. ;)

 

Theres a few prisoners in Guantanamo. But perhaps the situation in Kenya and other more closer locales might re-direct a bit of your concern there Borseun ..

 

I do anything BUT support Bush Jr. :) and his policies. :hihi: In fact I have to come to some incongruent reason to support them, against what I would have done in his shoes ... So as not to go Cho and shoot up a College or commercial mall.

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What happened to the few inmates that were released?

They quickly went back to taking arms up against the US. -Raccoon

 

With even more gasoline to pour on the fire...making it yet even easier to recruit more like minded individuals to take up arms against us.

 

We need to get our s#!t together!!! and SOON!!

 

Our legacy of hate and abuse of the civil rights of our own citizens is bad enough...We're supposed to be better than that now...We don't allow other nations to behave as we have been...it's time live up to the same level of descency and humanity that we expect the of rest of the world.

 

How many more nations will we to pi$$ off before measures are taken to protect the rest of the world from us and we are reguarded as no better than the NAZI's?!?!?!?!?! A threat to be eliminated at all costs?

 

NO Govt. has the right to allow the violation of the civil rights of any human being....regardless of it's reasons.

 

We try leaders of other nations (even executed one) and their subordinates for this $#!+ WE therefore have no excuse and no right to do it to others.

 

All involved should be prosecuted and sentenced just like any other war criminal...including our wonderfull Commander In Chief!

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On what do you base this notion, Racoon?

How do you know this is true?

 

Prove it not true!

I'm NOT supporting Guantanamo. Why don't You prove that they will go right back to being productive citizens ?

 

Just saying that This is what the Administaton has evolved into! I can't change whats already been done.. Nor any American at that..

I am being a pragmatic realist.. Thank you Free Speech!!

 

 

Quit saying "Shame on You " as if you wish to include all Americans into your little 'Holyier than Thou' free speach Mike...

 

You might want to recognize that Islam wants to take your government down,,,

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Prove it not true!

 

Now you know better than that on this site, Rac. :shrug:

 

I'm NOT supporting Guantanamo. Why don't You prove that they will go right back to being productive citizens?

 

1. I'm not accusing you of anything.

2. I'm not asserting what they are doing. You are.

 

I just wonder where you get that impression. How do you know they are guilty of anything? We have released 492 detainees since the prison was opened. Would we have done that if we believed that they were likely to take up arms against us once released? If they were innocent prior to being held, should we be surprised if they choose to take up arms against us now?

 

Just saying that This is what the Administaton has evolved into! I can't change whats already been done.. Nor any American at that..

I am being a pragmatic realist.. Thank you Free Speech!!

 

But we can change how we intend to proceed. And I promise to always defend your right of free speech.

 

You might want to recognize that Islam wants to take your government down,,,

 

This is another fallacious statement. Being Islamophobic is very unbecoming of you. It is not Islam that wants retribution. It is fanatical, fundamentalist, jihadists that have distorted Islam and want to harm our interests in an effort to protect their own. They cannot take down our government. There will always be radicals in this world. We have them here in our own country. Our goal should be to marginalize them into insignificance, not bolster their cause.

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To those who would close Gitmo, what do we do with the prisoners, release them all? Perhaps we could send them to the countries that are crying out against their treatment. Perhaps these people who have been captured for alleged terrorist acts would be treated properly and have legal access to the courts of more lenient governments. I, for one, would support this action. Why should the US be criticised for trying to fight terror with it's own money and the blood of its young soldiers, while the usual slackers in defending their own countries verbally abuse us? There is nothing inherently good or bad about Gitmo. If the prisoners were not there, they would be somewhere else under the same conditions or worse. Most are living under far better conditions at Gitmo than they were at home. Plus, they are not killing any more of our soldiers OR citizens of other countries. The terrorists have shown they are willing to kill people of any country, age, ethnicity, or gender. Do you want more beheadings of innocent people, or would you like for the Americans to continue to clean up the bad guys while being criticised by the very people they have sacrificed for on several occasions? I would like to say

to Hell with the rest of the world, let them fight their own battles with their own soldiers and their own money while we withdraw a bit from the global stage. We could better take care of ourselves without the constant criticism from our ''friends''.

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To those who would close Gitmo, what do we do with the prisoners, release them all?
they should be well trained prisoners with a good network by now.
Perhaps we could send them to the countries that are crying out against their treatment. Perhaps these people who have been captured for alleged terrorist acts would be treated properly and have legal access to the courts of more lenient governments. I, for one, would support this action.
You created the problem you keep them. if you stick a stick into a hornets nest you take the consequences.

I would be surprised if many would want to "turn the other cheek" for being banged up for no reason or justification. I would be out for revenge.

Why should the US be criticised for trying to fight terror with it's own money and the blood of its young soldiers, while the usual slackers in defending their own countries verbally abuse us?

Who asked you?

Who invited you?

There is nothing inherently good or bad about Gitmo.

Yes there is. It is illegal, immoral, unjust, unfair. If it was legal why not have it on your own soil instead of a county you hate and have screwed for years?

If the prisoners were not there, they would be somewhere else under the same conditions or worse. Most are living under far better conditions at Gitmo than they were at home.

Not not true. Have you seen a Gitimo cell?

 

A video here

YouTube - Guantanamo Bay Cell at UNSW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwwZ0Pf0Y60

Guantanamo Bay Cell at UNSW - AOL Video

 

I am at home having a drink watching the cricket.

How would I be better off in GB?

 

Posted: 05 April 2007

 

In a new report published today (5 April), Amnesty International says that 80% of detainees at the US military prison at Guantánamo Bay in Cuba are being held in solitary confinement, often in harsh and inhumane conditions.

AIUK : USA: Guantánamo Bay - New report shows 80% of detainees in solitary confinement

 

Plus, they are not killing any more of our soldiers OR citizens of other countries. The terrorists have shown they are willing to kill people of any country, age, ethnicity, or gender. Do you want more beheadings of innocent people, or would you like for the Americans to continue to clean up the bad guys while being criticised by the very people they have sacrificed for on several occasions? I would like to say

Are the people in Gitimo terrorists?

How do you know?

How does anyone know?

to Hell with the rest of the world, let them fight their own battles with their own soldiers and their own money while we withdraw a bit from the global stage. We could better take care of ourselves without the constant criticism from our ''friends''.

Another thin-skinned, patriotic, Yank.

Have you ever read your constitution?

How do you "fit" those words with what is happening in GB.? Not without a great deal of cognitive dissonance?

To your 'real' "friends" Israel, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan you can do no wrong.

 

So when do you intend to "withdraw"?

Bush announced more troops going to Afghanistan this week.

 

What has GB got to do with "better take care of ourselves"?

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Now you know better than that on this site, Rac. :xx:

 

 

 

1. I'm not accusing you of anything.

2. I'm not asserting what they are doing. You are.

 

I just wonder where you get that impression. How do you know they are guilty of anything? We have released 492 detainees since the prison was opened. Would we have done that if we believed that they were likely to take up arms against us once released? If they were innocent prior to being held, should we be surprised if they choose to take up arms against us now?

 

 

 

But we can change how we intend to proceed. And I promise to always defend your right of free speech.

 

 

 

This is another fallacious statement. Being Islamophobic is very unbecoming of you. It is not Islam that wants retribution. It is fanatical, fundamentalist, jihadists that have distorted Islam and want to harm our interests in an effort to protect their own. They cannot take down our government. There will always be radicals in this world. We have them here in our own country. Our goal should be to marginalize them into insignificance, not bolster their cause.

 

 

Then if we have already released the 400+ innocents, then whats the problem with holding the rest?

 

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Islam.

 

Nor am I fond of the Hypocrisy here that slams religious beliefs as absurdities based without scientific fact ;

yet then defends their actions as justified becuz thats their religious doctrine and free right to do so ..

 

so ... :embarassed::xx:

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You make a great discussion REASON. I really won't argue your words.

I suppose I was abit taken by the "Tags" on this thread..

 

The people in Gitmo right now should be charged with something. And made public, and be given access to lawyers.

Why they haven't is a mystery to me.

 

I am in no way supporting the Bush Jr. administration.

 

Nor am I supporting Islam. Or a Politically Correct form of Islamofascisim. Whether they're Radical or not.

Muslims in this country are trying to ban Halloween, Christmas decorations, pork in school cafeterias, wanting footbaths installed around major municipalities... etc.

Basically asserting their views that No other religion or opinion is tolerable around them.

1 ACLU lawsuit at a time.

 

Go back to where you came from if your religious ideals are so damned important to you, then.. :turtle:

 

Moderate Muslims don't really care about "Infadels" being killed. Its all a nice little gloss.

 

Holy Wars have been fought for centuries. And it will continue.

 

Theres no changing the current American political policy until it changes Executive cabinets.

 

Sometimes I have to side with the Chinese Communists who believe religion is poison.

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