pgrmdave Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 see? the determinism vs freewill battle pops up everywhere. someone's got to start a thread on it. At Tinny's request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishEyes Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Ok, I'm in. What's the context of the topic, though? Are you saying there is, or is not, Free will? And if so, free will to do what, exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 PG,I had clicked the 'new thread' button and typed 'Determinism vs Free will' on the title form three times already. But I didn't have the courage to click the 'Post new thread'...Anyway, this should get the fire going:http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~philos/MindDict/quantum.htmlIt's about the relation of metaphysics and QM, which suggests free-will. here's an excerpt1. Free will. Many people are convinced that humans have free will, and yet are also convinced that the Newtonian-mechanical goings-on of things as large as neurons makes no room for free will. They thus turn to quantum mechanics in the hope that the non-determinism of the collapse of the wave function will provide a foot in the door for free will. Of course the wave function collapse is, according to current theory, random, and it is not clear that this is any better than determinism when it comes to explaining free will. Nevertheless, the hope seems to be that, at least in some cases, consciousness exerts its influence on the world through effecting some collapses, presumable some in the brain somewhere, in one way rather than another. Irish, it's good to see you back in the thick of the action. But don't run away when the going gets tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted December 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Ok, I'm in. What's the context of the topic, though? Are you saying there is, or is not, Free will? And if so, free will to do what, exactly? I'm going to stay out of this one for a while, just to see where it goes :P At least, I'll try to stay out. And if so, free will to do what, exactly? The free will to make choices as opposed to following the laws of physics with regard to our brain. Whether or not the universe, given its initial starting conditions, would always develop the same, or whether intelligent life can affect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted December 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 PG,I had clicked the 'new thread' button and typed 'Determinism vs Free will' on the title form three times already. But I didn't have the courage to click the 'Post new thread'... :P What can I say, I'm willing to take risks, make mistakes, get messy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 I didn't have the courage because of my track record :P . Nobody would take the thread seriously and give a fair evaluation on both sides. Your's is still clean - so don't worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted December 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Your's is still clean So far :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Central to this discussion is whether the mind is a mere computer or non-computational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geko Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Because these are my thoughts on it, ive taken this from my post in the 'natural it is' thread:: Stating human action as completely determined denies the complexity i feel. Sure, human will is influenced constantly, but the choices are our own because who are we if not what we've been influenced toward? This, as an identity, equals freewill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 who are we if not what we've been influenced toward?i can't understand this part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanctus Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Geko, what you say seems to me a statement that freewill doesn't exist: we are what we are because we are influenced (I'm influenced therefore I am), when we make a choice we do it as a result of all the influences we got, this makes having other things influence on us and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 This discussion has been thoroughly visited and there is a hypography on the topic. (Which I wrote a couple of years ago.) So far, no one has answered my outstanding question by giving me an example of free will. Until then, the theory of causal determinism stands.:D There's no point in going over the same material. If you have an example of the "null hypothesis", then what iis it? Othewise you are just speculating and expressing unfounded opinions. This is a science forum, remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 determinism implies a clockwork universe right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geko Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Idiosyncracies, persona, character etc., are a product of choices we've been influenced towards making in life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geko Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 we are what we are because we are influenced (I'm influenced therefore I am), when we make a choice we do it as a result of all the influences we got, this makes having other things influence on us and so on. Yes, that sounds like my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geko Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 And the reason why i think we have choice is because we have intent - but this doesnt deny the influence of our past ... Maybe this opinion is illogical, anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geko Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Hmm... 1) We make choices by intent 2) We experience influence from our past 3) 1+2 = determined................? I guess this is the question - of which some say we're determined, and i make a line between influenced and determined. Maybe im wrong. I just dont see that a choice in the past WILL lead to another PARTICULAR choice, rather it may do. To me it's fuzzy, is the line drawn anywhere? Lindgarette? care to supply info? (ill look for you hypog) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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